Soviet Over Powered?

What do you think? I think over powered

People saying there overpowered is confusing.

The tanks they have are terrible against inf (Even the anti inf tanks). And they are so highly inaccurate.

Early game: They are very good, they have good ways to overpower the enemy, but are no means OP (they are just good @ start).

Mid game: Very balanced, maybe a bit underpowered, there tanks are just not really effective at all.

End game: This is where they need a buff, tank vs tank they win, but everything else they lose at.

I have played multiple games already, (over 10) and noticed that they do have troubles @ the end game portion of a match.

Maybe it's just me, But I am rank 15 so I have played this game for a long time.

So right now I vote a bit underpowered.

well their suppose to get worse bc the wehr rolls out its vet by then. I mean most of what the wehr does early to middle game anymore seems to be holding on till they can get vetted up. Tanks are just terrible vs inf though haha

I just played Panzer Elite at Vire River Valley with a Wehr ally against Soviets.

The Soviet players just took their half of the map, blocking the river passes with sandbags and tanktraps, fortified the center where my ally and me tried to attack (three trenches, two MG nests and the first AT gun moved there soon as it could).

I think both of us realized as soon as we saw the blockades that they were trying to stop us from advancing while they teched up. A few minutes later, my ally and me rolled a total of four Panthers straight into one of their bases. Before the three or four AT guns they had rolling around were moved to counter this (it could have worked, we had to go through three other AT guns first and got hit hard), they dropped.




Soviets are not overpowered at all. I think the mod devs took too seriously the fears of people who thought the Sovs would be OP. Sure you can spam conscripts at first, but they are pathetic. Your only early game advantage is the comand squad. And soon as you start blocking passes and entrenching yourself to tech up, your opponent knows what you´re up to.

Frankly, I think the Sovs could do with having a few armory upgrades reduced in cost. The extra rifles one in particular. Maybe the Ingenery too, but I haven´t played enough yet and I don´t know if that would give some Sov players the double flamers, which sound brutal.

We've taken some balance concerns on board and there will be a patch coming out soon, possibly tomorrow. Main balance change will be the Soviets starting resources, they'll be getting lowered. Other changes will be made apparent in the changelog.

ty for the update!

I think they are somewhat balanced.

It is true that conscripts are awful, however an Ingenery+WSC strat with Urban Fighting is quite decent. At only one cp you get the amazing double flammenwerfer which used properly will seriously damage just about anything.

The WSC gives you the PTRD guys who can really put the hurt on PE vehicles like no other faction can early game, and the sniper team provide typical sniper support. And you only need 75 fuel total (25 of which you start with) to get to anti-tank guns.

I definitely wouldn't say Soviets are overpowered. I find that they can struggle against tank spam, because they have no handheld anti-tank. Their only AT options are the anti-tank gun, the IS-2, and the SU-85... two of which are expensive vehicles. The IS-2 is ridiculously expensive and has a shorter range than a Panther even if it would win that short range slugfest. The SU-85 is also at 100 fuel, and I've only used it once where it was killed in about five seconds after a panther shot took off 90% of it's health in one go (wtf?).

To me, in a game between two good players the Soviets actually have the advantage in the early game whereas the Axis have it in the late game. The Axis have always been the lategame powerhouse due to German Steel, and since the Soviets are extra vulnerable to it that does not help matters at all. On the other hand, PTRD+Urban Ingenery can make strong pushes against both PE and Wehr early game.

And every time I see someone say 'Use MGs against Soviets early game!' I automatically know that they have no semblance of skill. It does not matter if I cannot retreat my infantry; I don't blob and the Soviets have the least trouble of any faction in reality. They have swarms of infantry good for flanking in multiple directions, they have an officer that gives you both heroic charge and officer arty from vet 0, they have 250mp snipers, they have double flammenwerfer available....





Edit: Well not anymore. Now that the devs are nerfing their starting resources and apparently some other things, get ready for a shitty early game too. GG devs, you do balance worse than Relic. Listening to the masses the moment the mod comes out? Sad. It does not matter how much you nerf them too, some morons will always keep calling them overpowered, and since you guys are so fearful of having your faction called overpowered you will nerf them into complete uselessness.

Last edited January 22, 2010 at 1:11 AM by GermanSteel

I agree with you 100%, nerfing there starting resources is dumb.

The main point is for the good start, now they get rolled start mid and endgame, makes no sense at all.

Tanks are terrible and need there cost either lowered or just get buffed all together.

MG's are okay vs soviet, but soviets have a lot of ways to get out of suppression, the early snipers for example own MG's a new asshole.

Please devs, don't go crazy right now, they need to be tweaked, they are underpowered then anything right now.

Makes no sense

I agree with German Steel. It is too early to think about any balance patches. Have in mind it takes days or even weeks for people to come up with different tactics and counter-tactics. Give it some time before changing the faction.



ONE thing I would suggest, though, is limiting the number of normal ingenery you can train at the start so Soviet players won´t go hunkering down to tech up. Three squads should be enough. Once the SN-42 upgrade is bought, you can remove that limit so they can perform their combat roles en mass. Meanwhile, the Soviet player will try to be either offensive, or balanced, rather than "lol I´m a Brit with cheaper AT".

This is just my opinion, but I would remove Ingenery trench building completely instead of limiting the number of squads. If you nerf the number of squads, then the most viable strat becomes not so viable. 200 munitions is WAY too late to do anything with Ingenery, especially if you intend to get flamethrowers.

@ yondaime604 - Do you have a replay of you winning against the Sovs as Wehr or PE (Human)? I'm intrigued to know why you think they're underpowered...

A replay proves absolutely nothing, the Soviet player could be lesser skilled or higher skilled. For you to think that means you don't know much about balancing, which is quite depressing.

BurroDiablo I don't have a replay, but I could get one if you really need one, but it won't mean much because the skill could be different from both players.

And I have already explained why I think they are underpowered, I think the biggest is A: the cost of the tanks + the costs on a few upgrades are a bit high.

I dono it may just be me, but 3 people in this thread alone have commented that they are underpowered, while the people who are not commenting have said they are overpowered just by clicking one button.

Shows who cares more imo

GermanSteel wrote:
This is just my opinion, but I would remove Ingenery trench building completely instead of limiting the number of squads. If you nerf the number of squads, then the most viable strat becomes not so viable. 200 munitions is WAY too late to do anything with Ingenery, especially if you intend to get flamethrowers.

That´s why I suggested reducing the munitions cost of some upgrades. Extra rifles, for example, shouldn´t be so expensive. The cost for ingenery, while better justified (they seem to be pretty damn powerful), still seems too high to me.

Also, why is spamming Ingenery a viable strat? You do that? I would think spamming conscripts would be better.

i agree i think they should hold off on a patch. When i first started playing against the soviets i thought they were overpowered as i got beat pretty badly the first few games. But the more i play and develop better strategy and tatics the closer i come to beating the soviets and it feels more balanced. Anyways i say hold off on the patch for atleast a week or 2 and let people get a better feel for the game. But i will say the Soviet A.I. absolutely wipes the floor with the Axis A.I. so that may need looked into.

GermanSteel wrote:
A replay proves absolutely nothing, the Soviet player could be lesser skilled or higher skilled. For you to think that means you don't know much about balancing, which is quite depressing.

Cut them some slack yeah?

Its only just out the door and theres two bunches of people bitching about the exact opposite thing? What do you expect them to do eh?

It'll get worked on and balanced out over the next couple of months, and I'm sure they know more about balancing than most of us here, hence why they're making the mod and we arent  ;)

@Sav

I do indeed spam Ingenery, because of Urban Fighting combined with being able to WSC start. I do not much like Conscripts, I find that Ingenery can hold their own in a fight even without trenches. Either way you get four rifles for 200mp and while the Conscripts may have twice the men for increased survivability, you also have to consider that each of those 8 men is very low on hp. Throw in the 50mu flammenwerfers, faster time to get set up (straight from HQ instead of building rax), and the ability to have a WSC earlier, and it's my preferred strat.

QuoteIts only just out the door and theres two bunches of people bitching about the exact opposite thing? What do you expect them to do eh?

The EXTREMELY obvious thing to do is NOT RELEASE A PATCH THE FIRST FREAKIN DAY AFTER IT COMES OUT!

Nobody is bitching, this is a thread for them to fix things.

Would you rather this thread get 0 responses and just let things go as it pleases?.

I could stop posting I don't mind, im just trying 2 help.

And I have complemented this mod 100 times now, its been fantastic, the few problems they have can be fixed easily, considering they nailed the talent tree portion is the best part.

GermanSteel wrote:
A replay proves absolutely nothing, the Soviet player could be lesser skilled or higher skilled. For you to think that means you don't know much about balancing, which is quite depressing.

Replays prove nothing? Sure, giving me a C&C replay would prove fuck all about CoH, but a CoH replay can still prove something balance wise. Anyway, I don't do balancing... as I said, I'm intrigued to see WHY Yondaime thinks the Soviets are underpowered in a sea of people that are complaining that they are the most overpowered shit since time began. He could be a good player, he could have shit opponents... even that is balance proof enough since it proves that the Soviets aren't underpowered, the Soviets player was just a tard.

QuoteI'm intrigued to see WHY Yondaime thinks the Soviets are underpowered in a sea of people that are complaining that they are the most overpowered shit since time began.

It's because he's not a noob like the sea of people you are mentioning are. You have to consider that you are listening to the masses. The masses are basic match players, who do 3v3/4v4 annihilate high resources, have bad micro, blob, etc.

So your sea of people are a bunch of noobs. And if you guys want to balance around noobs, have fun with doing that.

And again, I'm going to say that a replay proves nothing. I could go take every replay I have of me winning Wehr vs US, but none of the ones of me losing, and post that. Does that make US underpowered? No.

Like being elitist much?  ::)

But yeah, from playing tonight they do seem to start off strong and then get increasingly hammered as time goes on.

Wasn't the idea with the Soviets that they were weak to begin with and then steamroll the opponent in the end? I'm sure thats what Apex said in the shoutcast.

Up to you guys, but dont do anything too hasty  :)

BurroDiablo wrote:

GermanSteel wrote:
A replay proves absolutely nothing, the Soviet player could be lesser skilled or higher skilled. For you to think that means you don't know much about balancing, which is quite depressing.

Replays prove nothing? Sure, giving me a C&C replay would prove fuck all about CoH, but a CoH replay can still prove something balance wise. Anyway, I don't do balancing... as I said, I'm intrigued to see WHY Yondaime thinks the Soviets are underpowered in a sea of people that are complaining that they are the most overpowered shit since time began. He could be a good player, he could have shit opponents... even that is balance proof enough since it proves that the Soviets aren't underpowered, the Soviets player was just a tard.

Dude I just want to help, if your calling me out for something for no reason go nuts.

Like I said, I have explained multiple times why I think they are underpowered.

Maybe if everybody bitches about it being OP and i say its UP, Maybe its actually balanced.

I am done posting here, I feel like I am getting targeted now.

stop bitching really you guys did a great job i disagree with the start resources suffering but the tanks really just need better accuracy and less fuel cost. Really that is all it and the armory needs a buff, as in the upgrades should cost less so they can tech far.

As for German Steel stop being such a dick to the developers they did a fine job, like they said. "FIRST run of the game is always shaky, they will get it more sorted out then relic i can tell you."

Honestly I think the ones that are complaining about them being OP are the Axis fanboys.

I'm sure the devs did testing with and between all factions before releasing this.

ViserExciser wrote:
stop bitching really you guys did a great job i disagree with the start resources suffering but the tanks really just need better accuracy and less fuel cost. Really that is all it and the armory needs a buff, as in the upgrades should cost less so they can tech far.

As for German Steel stop being such a dick to the developers they did a fine job, like they said. "FIRST run of the game is always shaky, they will get it more sorted out then relic i can tell you."

Pretty much my thoughts exactly, late game it just becomes too hard to counter all the axis armour, especially once its vetted.

No, I'm not targeting you... I prefer the change to people saying that we've overpowered them. We're getting a lot of Axis players complaining about the Soviets just overwhelming them and I want to see, from a good Wehr players perspective, if its either because A. The Soviets are genuinely overpowered or B. That the people complaining about balance are just annoyed because they are poor players.

QuoteIt's because he's not a noob like the sea of people you are mentioning are. You have to consider that you are listening to the masses. The masses are basic match players, who do 3v3/4v4 annihilate high resources, have bad micro, blob, etc.

So your sea of people are a bunch of noobs. And if you guys want to balance around noobs, have fun with doing that

Those are some nice assumptions. You'll find we're having experienced players complaining about balance also.

QuoteI could go take every replay I have of me winning Wehr vs US, but none of the ones of me losing, and post that. Does that make US underpowered? No.

If one of those replays showed you rolling over the other player like a tide and winning the game in 55 seconds... then yes, yes it would.

Last edited January 22, 2010 at 2:30 AM by BurroDiablo

THE PAKS THEY DO NOTHING

Quote
If one of those replays showed you rolling over the other player like a tide and winning the game in 55 seconds... then yes, yes it would.

So what you're saying is if I go run a game for you real quick against a noob and win in a very short amount of time, you'll use that as proof of US being underpowered and/or Wehr being OP?

This mod is destined for failure.

QuoteInsert Quote
No, I'm not targeting you... I prefer the change to people saying that we've overpowered them. We're getting a lot of Axis players complaining about the Soviets just overwhelming them and I want to see, from a good Wehr players perspective, if its either because A. The Soviets are genuinely overpowered or B. That the people complaining about balance are just annoyed because they are poor players.

It's B. And I guarantee you that any GOOD player you can find isn't going to seriously complain about balance on the first day like this.

I guess I will be playing all day, until you guys destroy the mod by nerfing the Soviets as soon as the fucking mod is released.

It would be cool if this was moddable, ala a real expansion. I would make a mod for good players in a heartbeat and in the meantime you could cater to the 4v4 annihilate high resource camp spam blob players.

BurroDiablo wrote:
We're getting a lot of Axis players complaining about the Soviets just overwhelming them and I want to see, from a good Wehr players perspective, if its either because A. The Soviets are genuinely overpowered or B. That the people complaining about balance are just annoyed because they are poor players.

Or C. People are applying the wrong strategy to defeat them because they don´t quite understand how the Sovs interact with the other factions.

GermanSteel wrote:So what you're saying is if I go run a game for you real quick against a noob and win in a very short amount of time, you'll use that as proof of US being underpowered and/or Wehr being OP?

This mod is destined for failure.

Ok, there is being a critic, but this is being a jackass. Kindly refrain from writing such insulting comments.


As for replays, the devs want balance discussion. They need empyrical evidence to support balance discussion. This empyrical evidence is acquired through replays. And since the devs designed the mod, the replays talk to them in a different manner, since they are more familiarized with how the mod works.

Replays are a nice tool for balance discussion as long as those watching them know the little details.

On the contrary, replays are a nigh-useless tool for balance discussion because of differences in player skill, which a balance discussion typically disregards by talking about the metagame.

GermanSteel wrote:
On the contrary, replays are a nigh-useless tool for balance discussion because of differences in player skill, which a balance discussion typically disregards by talking about the metagame.

You clearly have no skill if you are incapable of looking at another player and telling if they have skill. You can look at a players micromanagement, retreat ability, and counter suppression ability to tell how good of a player they are. You can also look at the resources they have throught the game to see how good their macro is.

If they always have high resources = bad macro, low resources = low macro. This is common knowledge to a lot of players familiar with even the least amount of competitive play and you are truly a casual gamer that has no place in a balance discussion if you are incapable of grasping these points. Good day Sir. You lose.

ElitistJerk wrote:

GermanSteel wrote:
On the contrary, replays are a nigh-useless tool for balance discussion because of differences in player skill, which a balance discussion typically disregards by talking about the metagame.

You clearly have no skill if you are incapable of looking at another player and telling if they have skill. You can look at a players micromanagement, retreat ability, and counter suppression ability to tell how good of a player they are. You can also look at the resources they have throught the game to see how good their macro is.

If they always have high resources = bad macro, low resources = low macro. This is common knowledge to a lot of players familiar with even the least amount of competitive play and you are truly a casual gamer that has no place in a balance discussion if you are incapable of grasping these points. Good day Sir. You lose.

Lol, hence his name

I've played 3 games and each time I've felt horribly underpowered. Conscripts are COMPLETELY useless for any kinds of combat at all. Maybe that was the intention, but then why bother with the Conscript upgrade?

Each game I find myself unable to stand up to Armored Cars at all. AT Gun? Drive around it. AT Squad? Shoot the bastards. AT Grenade? Might make one of them retreat momentarily, but he'll be back. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but each time Armored Cars slaughter me.

Tanks, well, I find them to be utterly useless. The first 2 are extremely weak, can't even take out the Armored Cars for me. Then the T-34, which comes out too late to solve my AC issues, because by then I've gotten to the point where most of my map has been taken away from me and he's rolling his AT Guns over to my base.

Also I think we need an M1910 HMG on a small cart. It'll act like an AT Gun in terms of movement, and a Vickers in terms of attack. That way it's unique compared to the other MG's.

Well I'm done, now you can flame me because I suck / Did it wrong / Didn't do ___ / etc.

The majority of the people in the polls think the game is Over powered, so FIX IT

Soviets are only slightly overpowered. Multiple MG starts rape them if they're kept alive. They definitely need some tweaking, but it really isn't as bad as it seems. Soviets not being able to retreat or recrew is a huge weakness which if taken advantage of makes them not so hard to beat.

Right, I'm going to make this simple for everyone

This is not a forum for keyboard fights and personal attacks.
Quoting line by line what somone has written and then  writing a page full of insults for each one is also NOT gonna happen in this forum

You want to make keyboard fights, find another forum or grow up and post like adults!

This is just a game gents, not a battleground.

Posts deleted

Last edited January 23, 2010 at 6:48 PM by Zerstörer

Quotekeyboard fights

I 'm familiar with it  :D
So ,trust me this wont end to anywhere ,I have resent suspended from somewhere because I use to do it and it is good believe me , express the right points but no keyboard fightings .
Thanks

GermanSteel, our policy is to delete offensive posts, full stop. That is a clear part of our rules, so nobody should have any suprises. But we don't have the time to read every single post on this board, so if you feel that somebody is flaming, report the post.