Russian Infantry

Hey guys, I'm slightly new to this forums so if any of my suggestions have allready been made then by all means ignore them.

Now, from my understanding of WW2 Russia, Infantry played a HUGE part in their army, more so than any other. Primarily conscripts. Now Im more of a Dow player,  matter o fact Im in charge of a modding team in the DOW community. Thus this gives me a handicap when deeling with the COH modding scene, so forgive me if any of my suggestions seem unbalanced. Anyway, It seems the main russian fighting force would consist of infantry, Conscript squads primarily. HUGE squads, perhaps up to 20 in a single squad, with low pop cap. Mob numbers. Easily pinned. BUT once they get higher in veterency they get much better bonuses, most units are just moderately more effective when upgraded into veterency. This would be due to the fact that Russian troops, especially in Stalingrad, would have had to have EXTREMELY good luck or fighting skills to survive the hell that was the Siege. Ive read suggestions of good defence, thats good. Is it possible to perhaps have the buildings be able to be upgraded with sniper nests? The Russians had extremely effective sniper squads from what Ive percieved. Speaking of which, Sniper teams might be a nice compliment to the infantry based army, 2-3 in a squad. Overpowered? Maybe.....

And are you guys going to add Heroes into the game? Cause the russian Sniper, Vasili Ikanof, (I beleive thats his name, I might be wrong) Would be a good addition, all units around him gain a moral boost, health boost and whatnot. He was a national hero of the time, my Great Uncle was a Commissar in Stalingrad, and we have the diary entries to prove that the men stood in awe of this man, he was a symbol of the Motherland. And since Conscripts and infantry during Stalingad had to salvage the majority of the heavy weapons, could you have squads that might be upgradeable with the German Panzershweck? Red Guard squads, or Vetren squads, upgraded with PPSh, grenades, and sticky bombs could prove to be effetive heavy infanty. Anyway those are some of my ideas, let me know what you guys think!

Cheers!

Ethan
p.s. pardon spelling, Im working on a wireless keyboard, and occationaly the conection goes out.....

:), i can see your DoWness coming through. It seems a lot of people mention large conscripts squads. Conscripts will be an early squad, and terribly weak compared to later squads, but very useful at the beginning. The Soviet Forces though will not primarily consist of Conscripts, the Russians had, and still have, many other types of units, regular soldiers, plus elite ones. When Germany invaded the USSR the Russians had 303 divisions and 22 brigades (4.8 million troops), including 166 divisions and 9 brigades (2.9 million troops) stationed in the western military districts. By the 1st of August 1941 though, the Red Army had reached 401 divisions. Throughout the war though some 30 million where conscripted by the Red Army, veterans and elite units, have to come from somewhere. The conscripts squads we all think would just be the rookies, in their first fight. The Elite units ingame though, are still mostly likely conscripts. 
It may seem the Russians where filled with infantry, but they still swarmed with tanks, and where some of the best people in history (when it comes to the T-34) to combine armour, armament, speed and speed of production into a single, powerful tank. These powerful Russian tanks will play an important role in the mod, not just spam.

We will not have Heroes in Skirmish battles, but doctrines will have the ability to call in special units, like the other sides.
As you have probably all ready read, the Red Army will most likely be heavily dependant on defences.

Thanks for the input. If you have any other ideas don't hold them back, we might not have thought of everything.

What mod are you from for DoW?
P.S. I think you meant Vasily Zaytsev.

Last edited March 13, 2008 at 9:35 PM by Dragon93

That's the guy... sorry, had been a long day, I realize now that I had got some of my facts wrong...

Anyway Thought I would at least put my 2 cents in so... :P

I guess I was focusing on more of Stalingrad era russia rather than pre war. I know pre war had all sorts of troops, though by stalingrad they were greatly depleted.

I'm Team leader over at Vostroyan Firstborn Mod :P The Russians of the 42nd millenium, besides those other ones... lol

I guess you've seen Enemy At the Gates then? Great film, but according to our guys, not totally historical.

Looks like a good mod, but i kind find much of the art work. Any links?

Oh yeah. Good film, but yeah, the diaries prove its not completely accurate. You need the GW artwork?  Cause we have some concept art of our own, but mainly models. If its models you want I can send both to you. Can I post em here or?

any plan to use partisans? i just took a class on the eastern front and they played an important saboteur/reconnaissance role, disrupting german supply and rearlines. i think it'd be pretty cool to use em, esp since they made use of what scarce equipment they were given (until after Stalingrad) as well as sacked german equipment-from uniforms to weapons. god this mod has the potential to be the coolest thing ever!  ;D

Also, what about guards divisions, although they are said to be designations of national pride, they were supplied better than normal red army units/peasants who took up the fight...

one thing i really want to see is a sort of "for the motherland" suicidal charge not too dissimilar to the "blitzkrieg" ability in the blitzkrieg doctrine.

ooooh, can't forget tank-riding infantry!!!!!! aaaaggh, so cool.

:). If you check out the quiet old "Update #1" in the announcements section, you'll see we're planning to do these things.

Thanks any way, got any other ideas?

As far as snipers are concerned...what if you had a 2 member team sniper/spotter. They could have an activated special ability in the same way as sighting a marder main gun(team leader ability). When it is active they can spot camoed units, but they can't move and are visible themselves. So, if there is 1 german sniper around he'll kill the spotter and the surviving sniper will the counter-snipe!

reinforcement would be  tricky

Zerstörer, we already have a similar idea.

QuoteAs you have probably all ready read, the Red Army will most likely be heavily dependant on defences.

Defences? o_O This is anti-historic, because the lack of any defences is the reason why Red Army was so badly pushed away in 1941. Soviet Union pushed all his money in attack weapons, not some pimpy fortifications. Also only when the Red Army turned into attack rather than defense they were fighting in less casualties than Germans (see Battle of Berlin and Operation Bagration).

Really the Red Army was weak in defense (especially in 1941), it shown itself in attack much better.

IMHO  ;D

Cough!...Kursk...cough! :dink:

This mod won't be based in 1941. If you look at the Osprey Fortress book, Soviet Field Fortifications 1941-1945 you can see how diverse Russian fortifications where, the German version of the book shows the same things about all the German defences. Sides won't be totaly dependant on defences, but there defences will be powerful.

Zerstörer wrote:
Cough!...Kursk...cough! :dink:

They also had a LOT of time to prepare for that. Plus if they were all defensive, would they have made it to Berlin ;)

AL_Hassan wrote:

QuoteAs you have probably all ready read, the Red Army will most likely be heavily dependant on defences.

Defences? o_O This is anti-historic, because the lack of any defences is the reason why Red Army was so badly pushed away in 1941. Soviet Union pushed all his money in attack weapons, not some pimpy fortifications. Also only when the Red Army turned into attack rather than defense they were fighting in less casualties than Germans (see Battle of Berlin and Operation Bagration).

Really the Red Army was weak in defense (especially in 1941), it shown itself in attack much better.

IMHO  ;D

hmm. i disagree. something like the Stalin line could never hope to make the central asian territories "secure." Also, combined arms tactics used on home turf usually mean "defensive" to me. the soviet union won with its strength of numbers and sturdy technology from early '43 onwards. you look at kursk and wonder how they won--- they had weeks of knowing about german offensive beforehand, so they give a HELL of a lot of AT guns, artillery pieces, fortifications where they know the germans will strike---good defense in short, then they use it as a springboard to advance on the enemy en masse.

but yea, physical defenses are part of why '41-'42 was defeat; also consider liquidation of officers/collaborators in '37/'38 and you realize that more and more are afraid to be labeled as a collaborator in red army ranks... also, while kv-1 and t-34s were present in the beginning of barbarossa...never in large numbers, and the early tank formations weren't coordinated by radios like german counterparts. lol i played call of duty 2 the other day and started to think the player is lucky to have a ppsh, cuz you wouldn't unless you were in a guards' division

  but i have another suggestion: i forgot that units could build fortifications! ever think of making peasants/civilians buildable with limited fighting ability, but able to build trenches and tank traps faster than their German counterparts?

Dragon93 wrote:
I guess you've seen Enemy At the Gates then? Great film, but according to our guys, not totally historical.

Looks like a good mod, but i kind find much of the art work. Any links?

Great film? One of the worst productions ever, sorry. Totally unrealistic Hollywood production and one more thing I can't stand is when German or Russian troops speak English.

They speak English so people know what they are saying. Personally, i don't like subtitles. Most people would rather watch and enjoy the film rather than read the subtitles.

You do have a point. But every country that isn't English speaking has to live with those subtitles anyway. Great work on this mod btw. I feel I have complained enough. hehe

They speak russian in my country  :)

That's because your countries cool.  ;)

Yes, Ukraine is cool country. :angel1: ;D
I should like to hear what uniforms of the Red Army will be in the mod (uniforms of beginning or end of the war?).
And I should like to hear aproximately when will be first screenshots of soldiers :)

This is interesting:
The Red Army used several types of body armour, including the SN-42 ( "Stalynoi Nagrudnik" is Russian for "steel breastplate", and the number denotes the design year). All were tested, but only the SN-42 was put in production. It consisted of two pressed steel plates that protected the front torso and groin. The plates were 2 mm thick and weighed 3.5 kg (7.7 Lbs.). This armor was supplied to SHISBr (assault engineers) and to Tankodesantniki (infantry that rode on tanks) of some tank brigades. The SN armor protected wearers from the German MP-40 9 mm bullet at around 100-125 meters, which made it useful in urban battles (Stalingrad). However, the SN's weight made it impractical for infantry on foot in an open outdoor setting.

Yes, the Russians did produce some body armour during the war problem is it just isn't that common and at CoH ranges that effect is almost negligible. Unless we go totally realistic on things and redo all the German parameters at the same time.

in this forum i have herad allot about partisans and i like the idea and i think it would be usefull if they were like the PE falschirmsjäger that they can come out from buildings anywere on the map (pre-battle infiltration) it would make it realy good, besides allies have no counter prt to the germans falschirmsjägers so i would be a good balance.

That's the plan :). Holidays are pretty soon, ill get back to work then, maybe do some work this weekend as well.