Balance

I know this is probably too late and no one cares, BUT I figured I would post this, if anything for my own personal knowledge that I at least said my peace on this!

This might be a long post but I earnestly hope it is read all the way through, at least by the dev team and all that are working on this project.

First off the new shoutcast that was posted was great. Well done. Apex’s  enthusiasm was GREAT and he seemed genuinely excited!

I must confess however, I do not share the same excitement with this mod. I am, obviously, in the VAST minority. I am not flaming and do not expect to be flamed in return, but rather was hoping to toss my opinion out for the betterment of this project as the essence of it is something we have all wanted!

I have major concerns about balance issues. CoH is already currently suffering from massive imbalances, in particular with the Brits and Panzer Elite. That being said I think the Russian army is going to be vastly over powered and this shoutcast seems to prove my own points.

My first major concern is the lack of the retreat button. On the surface this, as stated previously by the team, makes the Russians more "tactical". However I feel that it takes away from the Wehrmacht tactics. The point I am trying to make with this is that, flanking an MG42 is incredibly easy with the Russians. One 8man conscript section runs in, get suppressed. Then, because (and especially early game!) because the MG42 isn't forcing the Russians off (because they can't retreat!) the MG has 1 of 2 problems. It is A). locked into position to continue suppressing/damaging the conscript squad or B) forced to fall back and give ground in the early/mid game. Once the Russians have one or two squads out, they can send one in to get suppressed and the others to flank, easily pushing off MGs in the early going, similar to the current US tactics but seemingly much more powerful because of the Russians strong late game as well.

Last I had heard, the Russian counterpart "Ostheer" will be released later, which causes so major issues with the current two armies facing off against this new giant. The biggest problem with this particular issue is that, once the Ostheer IS out, it will be vastly OPed along with the Russians, making the other 2 current Axis factions pointless.

The IS-2 seems to be a bit strong. I know it was a powerful tank, but 2 of them being able to take out a KT with relative ease (the Panzer IV came in late but still got a couple shots in and they STILL didn't kill one until after the KT was down) and the fact that a Panzer IV is obliterated by these things really kills Wehrmacht's late game. How does a Panther hold up to these? A Tiger? It seems from that replay that a KT is a terrible choice versus Russians because once they have 2 IS-2s your KT is trash. Now granted, it was poorly supported, no argument there. But if you set two up gunned shermans unmicroed against one unmicroed KT, KT wins 100 out of 100 times. Same with Cromwells, or Fireflies. As Apex said, the KT is called "KING" because it is. But as long as you produce 2 IS-2s you crush the thing. Meanwhile if your diligent you can easily decrew the packs either with Stalin's Organ Pipes, with infantry or through combined arms. And if you do happen to lose one of your IS-2s, well just make another. But if the Wehrmacht loses the KT...it can't make another. That is why it's supposed to be so powerful. You get it once and that's it.

The "slow" start for the Russians doesn't seem very slow to me. Granted, you don't have an initial unit but the production time and extra resources easily make up for this. You go from having 0 units to 3 units within 90 seconds or so and the Wehrmacht has 4 units if they are lucky. Problem is 2 of the 4 Wehrmacht units are Pioneers who are off capping elsewhere in many instances. Russians seem to speed up quite well and have NO problem in mid/late game. Wehrmacht is widely known as a faction that doesn't "start fast" like the US, for example. This contradicts the Russian's "slowness" because the Wehrmacht's strength isn't in early game, but late game. So technically, both factions start slow and get BIG later. Except Russian's late game is more powerful than Wehrmacht's. And since Wehrmacht doesn't excel at early game (it's a more campy army that holds what ground it has taken and SLOWLY advances after each winning engagement!) at what point do the Axis have the chance to win? In the case of US VS Wehrmacht, US wins by pressuring early, resource denial and aggressive play with flanks. Wehrmacht wins by preventing those flanks and vetting up with partial map control, then pushes as late game comes in. There is a synergy of the two factions. Russians don't have that synergy with Wehrmacht and certainly not with PE because PE's AT is (by any sane CoH follower) considered sub par. 

The upkeep cost also seems to not even effect the Russians. Generally, by late game a Wehrmacht player with a couple MGs, couple Grens, Pios, 1 PaK, an Owstwind and Panther for example, is getting something like 220ish man power/minute.

The US has similar issues but those can be fixed by the reliable and underused supply yard upgrades. However without those, the US has similar drains on their resources. The Russians fielded (apologies I am not familiar with all the squad names yet!)  several (5ish total I believe) infantry squads of various tiers, one Organ Pipe, and two IS-2s and STILL had 270+ Manpower income, even in late game. That is nuts. Obviously no one needs to worry about how the US scales against Russians but the example just proves the point. Russians don't seem to be capable of being drained of Man Power, which is one of the biggest early game wars between the vanilla factions.

The abilities to break suppression aren't normally HUGE issues but when the unit NEVER retreats and breaks suppression regularly it makes MG42s obsolete for Wehrmacht,  a faction that traditionally relies heavily on "combined arms" tactics to overcome their opponent. 

These are just some of the issues I see and am afraid of with the coming mod. As I previously mentioned, I most definitely want an expansion/mod like this. But I want it done right, not just hurried out (not trying to insulting the time that all of this excellent team has put in) and create further imbalances to the ever shrinking community of CoH.

Anyhow, I have a ton more I could say but as I previously said, I don't want to be taken as someone insulting the team or the effort. I love the idea and think you guys are trying to do something great. But I feel like you may be "out thinking" your selves by trying to be too original and this is what brings about imbalance issues. 

ford_prefect wrote:
ok I HAVE to say this "THE NEXT TIME SOMEONE SAYS THIS I AM GOING TO SHOOT A PUPPY!" no but I will get kinda mad

Well, I can clearly see you actually read my post and took it to heart. Along with that, you really put in some thought to your reply and really tried to take what I said and in a productive way, counter my argument. Glad to see constructive criticism and concerns are well received. 

Seriously, if you get your squad caught in MG fire, they aren't getting out. The 'no retreat' doesn't mean you can keep pushing forward. No, it means your soldiers become pinned until they are ripped to shreds.

We recently hosted a beta with about 50 players, many of whom could be regarded as being in the top percentile of CoH players. After many fine-tunes over the course of several hard weeks, they are now in agreement that the balance is pretty damn tight. The system we have for patching will make keeping balance ridiculously easy for both developers and players, so you will see further fine-tunes as the mod grows.

So, thanks for your thoughts, but I suggest you try the mod out before you accuse the Soviet faction of being 'vastly overpowered'.

WartyX wrote:
Seriously, if you get your squad caught in MG fire, they aren't getting out. The 'no retreat' doesn't mean you can keep pushing forward. No, it means your soldiers become pinned until they are ripped to shreds.

We recently hosted a beta with about 50 players, many of whom could be regarded as being in the top percentile of CoH players. After many fine-tunes over the course of several hard weeks, they are now in agreement that the balance is pretty damn tight. The system we have for patching will make keeping balance ridiculously easy for both developers and players, so you will see further fine-tunes as the mod grows.

You having top tier players play test is great. I'm a huge fan of that. And if it does turn out to be well balanced then no worries. I was simply saying that it SEEMS that it is overpowered. That being said after I posted that I saw that several people said the Wehrmacht player wasn't really trying to play hard.

QuoteSo, thanks for your thoughts, but I suggest you try the mod out before you accuse the Soviet faction of being 'vastly overpowered'.

[/quote]

No need to be rude. I'm disappointed that you (especially since you represent the forums and mod) seemed to take everything I said as an attack on this project instead of someone who wants the same things but is just concerned.


At any rate, I want the mod to go well but if I was actually concerned about the balance and game play and took my time to CONSTRUCTIVELY post them, having someone come back and say basically "Either try it or just shut up" isn't exactly the best PR. I want to try it but am cautious about it. I'm not accusing anyone of bad things just simply voicing issues with things that have come up with other expansions and mods in other games. You can't blame someone for being concerned when the company that MADE the game has done little to actually balance it in the current state (which then makes it harder for any dev team to effectively mod things).

Thats why I posted here. To get constructive information that refutes my hang ups and proves that these things were taken into consideration. I'm not going to try it because you tell me to. I'm going to try it because I want to or I won't try it because of my hang ups. Thats my choice. As a mod I would think you would want to project a professional appearance in your replies and not be someone who randomly attacks a person who simply voices some concerns and looks for constructive replies that are informative.  Thats is all I wanted. If all of these points have been considered, tested, balanced and tested again, then just say so. No need to get nasty at all.

Edited because I accidentally had one of my paragraphs in the quote, sorry!

Last edited January 14, 2010 at 8:03 PM by Bigpop

- I thought the soviets were under powered, for one.
Apple wasn't even trying. He went to middle map and
masturbated at vet0 until soviets overpowered him :p
- Support and PPsH and a lot of other 'fun' soviet abilities
were not even used for soviets. No SU85? Only one Katyusha?
No T34/85, etc. So hard to guess. They both were not
playing at their best.
- 2x IS2 killed the King Tiger... well... and 2x Shermans
couldn't. Shermans are T34/76. Up-gunner Shermans are
T34/85 sorta. IS2 is one step higher. I very much think
that IS2 should be harder to bring out, I've ranted on
this at lenght earlier on in another post, but, hey ;)

  2x VETTED Panthers could seriously piss off a Pershing.
  We're not talking 2x vet0 Pz4 here.

when the mod comes out, me and friends will
thoroughly torture the poor thing and test things out.

: I didn't see an ability to OP flags :p
: I think Soviets should get a T34 call-in ability (basic)
(Like PE 2x Panther group)(I also think PE shouldn't be
able to call more than 1-2 groups, but hey ;)
: T34 tracks are really loud :) I like that :) Historical.

---
Bippop : Americans riflemen got retreat and fire up (Para/
Rangers). British got retreat to captain and lieutenant breaksuppression (Imagine captain flanked the MG and the
suppressed units retreat to captain - BEHIND THE MG!)

... Russian commander is 500 MP and unique. If
*ANYTHING* it means the Russian ability is inferior
to the American and British ones. I do have ONE thing
to say though : Americans and British charge makes troops
EXAUSTED after said charge. Not the russians. That's my
only beef ;)

  I'd suggest making cooldown somewhat lesser (-15%?)
but make russian troops exausted after their charge?

- T34 should get cage. Not SU85 :) T34 is skirmisher ;)

Last edited January 14, 2010 at 7:40 PM by Loupblanc

Alright, calm down Bigpop, I have never attacked your opinion. I simply answered your question contructively and backed it up with the opinions of our beta testers, and then suggested you play the mod to further your opinion. I don't understand why you have taken such offence to it.

WartyX : I understand where he's coming from. He tried
to be polite, etc. Was worried he'd get flamed, to such extent
that he reacted as such. Prefect_Ford's response might have
helped him along that way as well ;)

WartyX wrote:
Alright, calm down Bigpop, I have never attacked your opinion. I simply answered your question contructively and backed it up with the opinions of our beta testers, and then suggested you play the mod to further your opinion. I don't understand why you have taken such offence to it.

No worries. Apologies. I'm calm  :P hahahah I just figured my post was going to get flamed but I want to post simply to find out information about the concerns I listed. And as Loupblanc said, sure enough the first reply (from ford) was rude and flaming which kinda set me on edge and I took your 1st post the wrong way.

Anyhow, I like some of the ideas you posted Loupblanc.

I don't know the cost of the IS-2 but I agree maybe it should be increased, or even a cap of two be put on the Russian player? They just seemed VERY strong for a unit that you can produce over and over!

As far as my example with the MG and flanking, what I was trying to say wasn't that the unit being suppressed could still push forward but they as long as the Russian player organized and timed his units properly they supressed squad would only take fire for a very short time, because he would be pushing forward with two other squads who were flanking the MG. The Wehrmacht player would have to retreat his MG or would lose it. Either way the squad who was taking damage (if done right anyhow) wouldn't have take MASSIVE casualties but rather one or two, which isn't the end of the world for the Russian units!  ;D

Bigpop wrote:

That being said I think the Russian army is going to be vastly over powered and this shoutcast seems to prove my own points.

Not True, the Russian player was a better player then the wehr one (I know, I've played against both, as both teams).

My first major concern is the lack of the retreat button. On the surface this, as stated previously by the team, makes the Russians more "tactical". However I feel that it takes away from the Wehrmacht tactics. The point I am trying to make with this is that, flanking an MG42 is incredibly easy with the Russians. One 8man conscript section runs in, get suppressed. Then, because (and especially early game!) because the MG42 isn't forcing the Russians off (because they can't retreat!) the MG has 1 of 2 problems. It is A). locked into position to continue suppressing/damaging the conscript squad or B) forced to fall back and give ground in the early/mid game. Once the Russians have one or two squads out, they can send one in to get suppressed and the others to flank, easily pushing off MGs in the early going, similar to the current US tactics but seemingly much more powerful because of the Russians strong late game as well.

Not true either, just change fire of the MG to the other squad(s) + conscrips get shewed up in less (or around) the same time as an US engie squad. Also if one conscript squad goes into a normal mg early game, the Russian player will almost 100% lose the 200 MP one costs.

The IS-2 seems to be a bit strong. I know it was a powerful tank, but 2 of them being able to take out a KT with relative ease (the Panzer IV came in late but still got a couple shots in and they STILL didn't kill one until after the KT was down) and the fact that a Panzer IV is obliterated by these things really kills Wehrmacht's late game. How does a Panther hold up to these? A Tiger? It seems from that replay that a KT is a terrible choice versus Russians because once they have 2 IS-2s your KT is trash. Now granted, it was poorly supported, no argument there. But if you set two up gunned shermans unmicroed against one unmicroed KT, KT wins 100 out of 100 times. Same with Cromwells, or Fireflies. As Apex said, the KT is called "KING" because it is. But as long as you produce 2 IS-2s you crush the thing. Meanwhile if your diligent you can easily decrew the packs either with Stalin's Organ Pipes, with infantry or through combined arms. And if you do happen to lose one of your IS-2s, well just make another. But if the Wehrmacht loses the KT...it can't make another. That is why it's supposed to be so powerful. You get it once and that's it.

IS-2 costs around the same as Panther (if not more actully!). Panther and IS-2 will stand toe to toe with eachother, I think (haven't tested it tho) that IS-2 will slightly win over a Panther. But you also need to remember, the Russian units do not gain veterancy in anyway. A vet 2/3 Panther will probably beat a IS-2.

The "slow" start for the Russians doesn't seem very slow to me. Granted, you don't have an initial unit but the production time and extra resources easily make up for this. You go from having 0 units to 3 units within 90 seconds or so and the Wehrmacht has 4 units if they are lucky. Problem is 2 of the 4 Wehrmacht units are Pioneers who are off capping elsewhere in many instances. Russians seem to speed up quite well and have NO problem in mid/late game. Wehrmacht is widely known as a faction that doesn't "start fast" like the US, for example. This contradicts the Russian's "slowness" because the Wehrmacht's strength isn't in early game, but late game. So technically, both factions start slow and get BIG later. Except Russian's late game is more powerful than Wehrmacht's. And since Wehrmacht doesn't excel at early game (it's a more campy army that holds what ground it has taken and SLOWLY advances after each winning engagement!) at what point do the Axis have the chance to win? In the case of US VS Wehrmacht, US wins by pressuring early, resource denial and aggressive play with flanks. Wehrmacht wins by preventing those flanks and vetting up with partial map control, then pushes as late game comes in. There is a synergy of the two factions. Russians don't have that synergy with Wehrmacht and certainly not with PE because PE's AT is (by any sane CoH follower) considered sub par. 

You can't just think of Wehr vs. Russia. Think about PE vs. Russia also, and Brit vs. Wehr for that point. Both Brit and Wehr are very slow in the beginning, but still both teams have the same chance to win.

The abilities to break suppression aren't normally HUGE issues but when the unit NEVER retreats and breaks suppression regularly it makes MG42s obsolete for Wehrmacht,  a faction that traditionally relies heavily on "combined arms" tactics to overcome their opponent. 

Instead of using MG42 to suppress a unit, use them to kill them. Also having a second MG42 covering the first one, will render the suppression breaking useless. For normal units to get suppression breaking, you are required to pay a single cost of 250 muni, and it only affect squads that are deployed after, none before.

Added responses in bold.

Question about mgs/infantry halftracks----

because russians seem to have a significant vulnerability to suppression, but compensate in other ways,

how effective has the balance team found builds that don't include mgs or infantry halftracks?

QuoteHe went to middle map and
masturbated

We were all thinking that... but you said it... well done :P

ford_prefect wrote:
1st quote from "Bigpop"
"Well, I can clearly see you actually read my post and took it to heart. Along with that, you really put in some thought to your reply and really tried to take what I said and in a productive way, counter my argument. Glad to see constructive criticism and concerns are well received."
ok rather rude sense I said "no but I will be kinda mad" don't you agree?
ok and in agreement with me (not the puppies though) came in Mr.WartyX saying
"So, thanks for your thoughts, but I suggest you try the mod out before you accuse the Soviet faction of being 'vastly overpowered'."
ok well VERY nicely stated and I was going to say the EXACT BLOODY THING
2nd quote from "Bigpop" states in a response to Mr.WartyX

"No need to be rude. I'm disappointed that you (especially since you represent the forums and mod) seemed to take everything I said as an attack on this project instead of someone who wants the same things but is just concerned."

uhhh well then....
what does "no need to be rude" mean Bigpop? that you can but they can't? ???

Good to see a forum troll doing his best to get as many posts as possible  8)

My point was; I wasn't rude. Go back and read the OP. There wasn't an ounce of malice or rudeness in it.

You replied with a troll post that had NO constructive points about the subject that I posted. Your second post in this thread was also COMPLETELY irrelevant to the topic and previous posts in the thread. Everyone had moved on and was commenting constructively about their opinions/ideas/concerns, except you who continues to try and rub salt in the wound. Meanwhile, your ignorance is astounding and you continue to be rude, with NO cause other than to get a +1 and be a troll.

No, I don't think I am allowed to be rude and others have to be nice. But I didn't make pointless rude comments in a thread you created and put serious thought and effort into. Leave your e-peen adolescent attitude to your friends. If you want to contribute information to the thread by all means I would welcome it. But so far all you have done is act like a troll.

Look at Bigop all high and mighty with his 9 posts. You cant just come into a forum and talk like you did and not except backlash.

You act like they haven't balanced and play tested the mod at all and then from a 30 min video that was meant to show off the soviets in the first place you assume the IS-2, among other things, is over powered. Let the damn mod come out and play it before you act like an asshat

Voop_Bakon wrote:
Look at Bigop all high and mighty with his 9 posts. You cant just come into a forum and talk like you did and not except backlash.

You act like they haven't balanced and play tested the mod at all and then from a 30 min video that was meant to show off the soviets in the first place you assume the IS-2, among other things, is over powered. Let the damn mod come out and play it before you act like an asshat

Can we get this topic locked? My original post was meant as a constructive post discussing things I had seen and looking for other opinions and ideas. People have taken it WAY out of proportion, even AFTER the situation was cleared up.

I don't think my post count has any relevance to the fact that I was simply looking for information. I don't understand the comment "You cant just come into a forum and talk like you did and not except backlash."

I didn't talk like anything. I can tell only a couple actually read my post and most are just randomly posting and just trying to jump on the bandwagon. It doesn't matter if I have 9 posts or 9,000 I didn't insult anyone in my original post. I specifically said I am simply looking for information and those were my initial feelings. That isn't "just coming into these forums," and talking however you think I did. The only time I got nasty was after I had been flamed FOR NO REASON.

Again, constructive criticism is great and should be encouraged. Not something that people flame others over. I'm an adult. Not some teenage kid in mom and dads basement who is looking for internet troubles. Please leave rude remarks out. If people want to post on this topic please reply to one of the posts that talks about THE MOD not this BS. 

QuoteI'm an adult.

Andy Samberg Threw It On The Ground

Ahh, sorry that's just the first thing that came to mind.

There is no reason to be judging people on how much they post.  I myself am fairly new to this and have acted similarly to Bigpop.  Yet I receive no such hate.  Everybody take a chill pill.  Watch the funny video and wait for the release on the 21st.  Hell I'm not even gonna be here then and yet I do not complain about the forums.

BTW, the recent news is that the IS-2 may be capped or nerfed a bit to alleviate this fear.

Heyhey, lets all calm down and embrace our mutual love for the EF mod  ;D

Voop: Just because the guy doesn't have a load of posts doesn't make his opinions less valid, postcount isn't a sign of maturity (just look at Loup :P) and worth.

Bigpop: The reason some people might get a bit hostile is because recently we seem to have had quite a few people coming here and moaning about percieved imbalance (both in reguar CoH and with EF, despite having not played it). And in a manner a lot less polite than yours.

Balancing will be going on right until the release, and with the autoinstaller/patcher that the mod comes with issues can be quickly addressed  :)

Last edited January 15, 2010 at 1:54 PM by luz777

ford_prefect wrote:

Bigpop wrote:

ford_prefect wrote:
1st quote from "Bigpop"
"Well, I can clearly see you actually read my post and took it to heart. Along with that, you really put in some thought to your reply and really tried to take what I said and in a productive way, counter my argument. Glad to see constructive criticism and concerns are well received."
ok rather rude sense I said "no but I will be kinda mad" don't you agree?
ok and in agreement with me (not the puppies though) came in Mr.WartyX saying
"So, thanks for your thoughts, but I suggest you try the mod out before you accuse the Soviet faction of being 'vastly overpowered'."
ok well VERY nicely stated and I was going to say the EXACT BLOODY THING
2nd quote from "Bigpop" states in a response to Mr.WartyX

"No need to be rude. I'm disappointed that you (especially since you represent the forums and mod) seemed to take everything I said as an attack on this project instead of someone who wants the same things but is just concerned."

uhhh well then....
what does "no need to be rude" mean Bigpop? that you can but they can't? ???

Good to see a forum troll doing his best to get as many posts as possible  8)

My point was; I wasn't rude. Go back and read the OP. There wasn't an ounce of malice or rudeness in it.

You replied with a troll post that had NO constructive points about the subject that I posted. Your second post in this thread was also COMPLETELY irrelevant to the topic and previous posts in the thread. Everyone had moved on and was commenting constructively about their opinions/ideas/concerns, except you who continues to try and rub salt in the wound. Meanwhile, your ignorance is astounding and you continue to be rude, with NO cause other than to get a +1 and be a troll.

No, I don't think I am allowed to be rude and others have to be nice. But I didn't make pointless rude comments in a thread you created and put serious thought and effort into. Leave your e-peen adolescent attitude to your friends. If you want to contribute information to the thread by all means I would welcome it. But so far all you have done is act like a troll.

I could point out the EXTREME irony in that post ;D

This is your 3rd post in this thread. And you STILL haven't contributed even one SENTENCE of constructive, useful information about the issue in the original post. You are the definition of an forum troll.

To help clear it up, here is a definition since you don't get it:

A troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Another for you:

An obnoxious user or member on a forum that goes out of their way to make pointless, offensive, or annoying posts and messages. Often these users are labeled as spammers and will post random off-topic junk in many sections of a forum.

A final one to make sure you get it:

1c. Noun
A member of an internet forum who continually harangues and harasses others. Someone with nothing worthwhile to add to a certain conversation, but rather continually threadjacks or changes the subject, as well.

I went ahead and took the liberty of bolding the parts of the definition which are what you have done since your 1st post in this thread. The general point is that you have contributed nothing, after the thread was going in the right direction you still interrupted and again with no USEFUL information. You have been the exact definition of a troll, regardless of if YOU think so or not. Read the definitions. It's clear enough. You haven't contributed one single thing to the original idea or point of this thread. Your posts are irrelevant and only serve to ruin this thread that has been otherwise, for constructive purposes. 

Last edited January 15, 2010 at 4:12 PM by Bigpop

He's got a point.

Also, Luz777 and Poop_Bacon, while I do enjoy being
inflammatory, I think I raised valid points in the past. I
care very much about this mod, and am eager to get my
hands on it, like we all do, I bet.

Sure, I got off the wall ironic humor, but I'd like to think
I can have my moments of lucidity and maturity, no?

Haha yeah I know I was only jesting, hence the  ":P"
But the internet doesnt really convey that sometimes.

No worries Mr Wolf, you've raised plenty of valid points about various things so far :)

Shall we get back on topic then?

Sure :D
Damn, I hate misunderstandings, sometimes.
Yea, sometimes, I push them along, but it's mostly out of
frustration that just can't do a thing about 'em. If can't beat
'em, then join them. Sigh.

I like Bigpop, though. It's chancellor that's the new troll :D

Throws pie to the face of Bigpop : Wheee! :D

Need mod soon before I go completely insane :D

"I went ahead and took the liberty of bolding the parts of the definition which are what you have done since your 1st post in this thread. The general point is that you have contributed nothing, after the thread was going in the right direction you still interrupted and again with no USEFUL information. You have been the exact definition of a troll, regardless of if YOU think so or not. Read the definitions. It's clear enough. You haven't contributed one single thing to the original idea or point of this thread. Your posts are irrelevant and only serve to ruin this thread that has been otherwise, for constructive purposes."
long weeks and break up do very bad things...
so to help get this thing rolling again I deleted every post I have put on here I suggest that delete any responses to those as well.
"Russian army is going to be vastly over powered and this shoutcast seems to prove my own points"
I agreed with you when I first watched the shout cast fearing the worst. But I went through the videos a second time and did notice that all the fighting was concentrated in one place and green apple did not bother at all to flank Apex or take the main middle point when it was open. I think the shoutcast just as much of the videos are "propaganda" do you get what I'm saying?
"My first major concern is the lack of the retreat button" I did agree with this and after reading your whole post it does make sense. the MG'42 I guess would just need to be protected on the flanks rather simple solution.
"once the Ostheer IS out, it will be vastly OPed along with the Russians" could you please expand on this theory?
"The IS-2 seems to be a bit strong" yes I thought the same thing but after watching the video a 2nd time I noticed that the King Tiger's health bar was already half way gone when it first came into contact with the two IS-2s
"The "slow" start for the Russians doesn't seem very slow to me" I do agree with you there. You went off and off about the "slow" game play of the Wher. while this is true Green Apple brought this TO THE MAX. 15 minutes in he only had 2 buildings (not including HQ) no one should take that long. Also the Wher. get MG'42s in their first building which should be able to withstand a heavy Russian spam in the start. When do the Wher. win? good question depends on your style of game play
"various tiers" not sure what you mean. Do you mean experience? If so then it would be nice for you to know that the Russian infantry don't "gain" any experience.
"it makes MG42s obsolete for Wehrmacht"
WOW SLOW DOWN MATE. just because they can "unsuppressed" that does not mean that the MG is gone for good. For example if you look at the little hints at the bottom of a loading screen it says "an HMG should be supported by a infantry squad" if you follow that rule it should help and that mg is not "obsolete" anymore
also I would like to say I'm sorry to any of you who saw my "trolling" side as I said "long weeks and break ups are hard"

! - The GF that kept hitting you in the head and whose
father you were working for... broke up ?? WTF dude?

- KT vs 2x IS2's notice the Katyusha got in a few good
hits in there. And one IS2 *STILL* bought the farm.
I'm not changing my mind. Something ought to be done to
limit IS2s so that T34 steal the show ;) (Limit of 2 is nice)

- The OstHEER vastly OP... Er... Yea, it's a danger, but
just like the Japanese, Italian and Brazilian will be vastly
OP, yknow? :)

- ** Soviets ** *MUST* be able to OP :p Balancing them
based on non-OP means their strenght will explode drama-
tically with US/British help. I like how the British +ressource
only helps the British (Not the trucks, the engineer doc
talent), for example.

I suggest Zis6 trucks capping/locking, or, easier,
BUNKER-CaPPING just like the PE scout cars do, no?

Make it a munition global upgrade if you want to :)

- Yes, I like to rant :)
- Makes MG42s obsolete?... Hmm, yup. Just like
Conscripts are made obsolete when they face (alone)
3x StuH42/105's... :p

2x Conscript squads : 400 MP. 3x : 600 MP.
1x MG42 = 260 MP.

This mod is a failure because 400-600 MP (+200 muni)
or +500 MP (command squad) beats 260 MP. Yup.

Mutual supporting MG42 squads based on tier defense
fixes problem :)

! - The GF that kept hitting you in the head and whose
father you were working for... broke up ?? WTF dude?
rather not talk about it NOW TO WHAT ELSE HE SAID
"The OstHEER vastly OP... Er... Yea, it's a danger" yeah its a "danger" in the same sense that you can be hit by a badger in a car saying "that's for my uncle!"
"I suggest Zis6 trucks capping/locking"
I like it
"Mutual supporting MG42 squads based on tier defense
fixes problem" What I said right? I think?

- Tell me more about why GF broke up? You guys
were almost promised :p
- Actually, there is more chance of OstHeer being OP
than of being hit by a car-driving badger screaming 'That's
for my uncle!'.
- Zis6/Bunkers capping/locking : I like it too.
- MG42 tier support : Well, yea. I mean crying because
500+400 (900 MP) can defeat 260 MP is, like, bleh.

I'm certain game would be more balanced if 260 MP could
stop 3000 MP cold :)

I like Schledt where 3 mortars and 2-3MGs will destroy
like 10x-30x times their worth in Expert AI zombies ;)

Tell me, man. There can be no balance until we all know :(

Loupblanc wrote:

Well, I'm really hungry and about to go to work...
For Breakfast, I had sex and 2x Toasts with blueberry
jam. What about you? :)

I had a tall glass of home made Orange Juice with a lot of
Pulp, as well as some peppermint candies :)

delete your posts like i did

? What are talking about, mate?

Loupblanc wrote:

? What are talking about, mate?

the button with the red X

Um, didn't anyone else notice that in the shoutcast the German player wasn't trying to hard anyways? I'm assuming they wanted to show cast the mod- He didn't even vet his troops until like halfway through. While I do enjoy seeing you come up with constructive criticism, you haven't:

1) Played the mod

Claiming ANYTHING is OPed is plain wrong, especially from viewing a SINGLE match between 2 players, whose CoH skills are unknown to you. Not trying to bag you man, but wait until it is released, then start calling things OPed. :D

Blue wrote:
Claiming ANYTHING is OPed is plain wrong, especially from viewing a SINGLE match between 2 players, whose CoH skills are unknown to you. Not trying to bag you man, but wait until it is released, then start calling things OPed. :D

Thank you, I am glad at least some people understand this idea.

. I didnt seem overpowerd to me... and Im a Wehr player and Im anxious to test my skills against the russian warmachine. Besides I think the devs have already fix the "OP IS-2" thing...

I been saying the IS2 was OP For ages :)
Been writing a few notes while at work :

hehe In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice... they're not. Eh.

** Make it so global Units affect older units (T34
and conscripts, etc, especially, suffer).

Note : IS2/SU85 start at full strenght. Making them
more desirable to build early on.

Recommend 1 xtra unlock for IS2. Perhaps a global
unlock needed before it can be built in the first place?
Limit to 2.

IS2 upgrade : Gain top MG and fixes the gun reload
speed (Initial IS2 gun reloading speeds were flawed)
(Thus a nerf to fix via Global Upgrade - IS2 needs one)

SU85 : Same thing. Lower initial reloading speed and
'fix' that via global upgrade. Make it somewhat less
expensive, though? SU85 perhaps could also need
initial unlock. Or rather, put it T3, instead of IS2,
but need xtra unlock for IS2. Global Upgrade of SU85
fixes reload speed of SU85. Might make it SAME
upgrade for both? Idea is the same. Initial nerf,
making it come 'of age' a little later. - Might make
it a + range and + reload speed for SU85 :)

T34 : Lower fuel cost to 65-70 like Cromwell?
Heck, might be tempted to say 55-60, even. No
Veterancy. - It should get Cage upgrade (It
squirmishes, where the SU85 doesn't). Other idea :
Make the T34/85 be a DIFFERENT tank? Like Pz4/Pz5.
The T34/76 costs 55 Fuel, the T34/85 costs 70?
Yes, it still has to be unlocked :) This assures it's
more spammable than IS2.

... Why should T34 be only unit with initial nerf when
SU85 and IS2 *AND* T70 start at full strenght???

T70 needs upgrade :) How about + Recon vision range?

Quote Recommend 1 xtra unlock for IS2. Perhaps a global
unlock needed before it can be built in the first place?
Limit to 2.

Totally agree with that every single faction has to do a research (or suchs) before being able to field their meanest units.

Yup. Soviet style is similar to PEs except the core buildings
are a lot more expensive, yet lack the unlocks?

Blue wrote:
Um, didn't anyone else notice that in the shoutcast the German player wasn't trying to hard anyways? I'm assuming they wanted to show cast the mod- He didn't even vet his troops until like halfway through. While I do enjoy seeing you come up with constructive criticism, you haven't:

1) Played the mod

Claiming ANYTHING is OPed is plain wrong, especially from viewing a SINGLE match between 2 players, whose CoH skills are unknown to you. Not trying to bag you man, but wait until it is released, then start calling things OPed. :D

Well, I wasn't a beta tester so I haven't had a chance to play it. That being said, having concerns about OP units or armies etc etc is never a BAD thing imo. Now, i'm not saying this mod is trash or broken etc etc. I was just trying to list a lengthy, thought out set of concerns that COULD happen and concern me. Could it all end up being PERFECT? Ya it could. Will it? Probably not. I don't think anyone expects it to be flawless with no need to update it and tweaks things etc etc.

But you guys have to understand, only a small portion of the CoH community has actually PLAYED this mod so far and so having a large number of community members who are interested but scared as well, is pretty common. All I could do was go by what I have read and seen. That shoutcast was the first time I have seen the mod in action (and the same with many people who didn't beta it) so it is natural to say "Alright that looked good no worries" and "Uhhh that was bad and may need a tweak". I certainly don't think the excuse of "Go play the mod before you criticize it" is valid. That means the only ones who could possibly have constructive, GOOD ideas, would be the beta tester community. I would think having constructive ideas, solutions and fixes brought to light by the overall community would be more beneficial and it seems the dev team agrees, or else they wouldn't have the "Suggestions" section of these forums!

We welcome suggestions and criticism, but it is much more helpful if you have played the mod and got a good feeling of how everything works as on paper it may seem there are some imbalances, but I would urge you to try the mod and see how it plays in-game rather than how it looks on paper.

Please understand that there is no intention of releasing a mod where one side is overpowered, it would defeat the whole point of starting this mod in the first place. Please have some confidence in the teams ability to balance the mod.

Tim270 wrote:
We welcome suggestions and criticism, but it is much more helpful if you have played the mod and got a good feeling of how everything works as on paper it may seem there are some imbalances, but I would urge you to try the mod and see how it plays in-game rather than how it looks on paper.

Please understand that there is no intention of releasing a mod where one side is overpowered, it would defeat the whole point of starting this mod in the first place. Please have some confidence in the teams ability to balance the mod.

Agreed.

But you have to admit, many game COMPANIES that have huge payrolls and budgets goof these things up often. Take into account that these guys have so graciously put in their time, but (at least as far as I know!) are on a much more limited budget, and it isn't unreasonable to think there maybe some issues, not because of lack of dedication or ability but time, demand and limited resources, etc etc.

The issue I had with the suggestions to play is that I can't play until it is released. Thus, all I can do is read and watch video and re-act to that, which is what I felt I did in the initial post. AS you stated these issues very well could have been addressed earlier by beta testers and the dev team, but I don't know that because I was fortunate enough to be part of this team when it started.

Anyhow, as I said I would love to see this go well and I think other posters here have talked about some issues that they potentially see. I don't know if any are beta testers but I think everyone here wants this mod to be bangin and this is just the easiest way to help make that happen since many of us didn't know about this project quick enough to be able to help or add in our opinions. :)

"Um, didn't anyone else notice that in the shoutcast the German player wasn't trying to hard anyways?"
I already said that.
also bigbop delete your other posts on me

I like this bigpop character :)
If I didn't know better, I would think he's me on another acc#
;)
Just kidding.

Excellent points you raise. BTW, check out moddb, it
seems like extra upgrades are in the wind! :D

Don't worry Bigpop, I completely understand you. I actually have a few fears myself that the Russians will be able to simply spam a ton of units and over-run the other player (like spamming a billion conscripts). And yes, I am aware that they cannot retreat- making a bunch of weak units cannon fodder for stronger units a strategy for every single game will kill the fun, fairly quickly. Again, I haven't played this mod... Even if I had beta tested it, it wouldn't matter- I've tested a few mods out before release and they can end up either much much better or slightly worse. In the end, that is what patches are for.

Yea, is what I was thinking.
Different in interesting. Will play it out, see how it works.
Test a few things. I REALLY like the strategy guide, totally
try a few things :)

* I'd like if SU100 upgrade can't be obtained UNTIL T34/85
upgrade, though. As the SU100 is a T34/85 variant :)

Aye, that is what patches are for :)
God love those patches :)

I'm pretty sure that Wehr Support Vet 1 will really shine against the UDSSR, just because of +25% acc -25% reload time for MG42, which will rape those conscripts within seconds.

Later on, vehicle vet for Pak38's (vet 3 + 20% dmg) and 88's will be very useful I guess, way more useful than against US.

Last edited January 19, 2010 at 4:07 AM by dArCReAvEr

Can you name those top players you've mentioned that was involved in balance testing? The wehr player from shoutcast play like lvl4, he should took out the is2 that was already damaged in the fist place not to shot at the new one with full health... anyway it's interesting that the developers can't say if the is2 > panther or not... I mean haven't you tested it?

Quoteit can best a Panther in a 1v1

From the guide

QuoteCan you name those top players you've mentioned that was involved in balance testing? The wehr player from shoutcast play like lvl4, he should took out the is2 that was already damaged in the fist place not to shot at the new one with full health... anyway it's interesting that the developers can't say if the is2 > panther or not... I mean haven't you tested it?

I think you completely missed the point of that shoutcast. Congratulations.

In a straight Panther vs IS-2, the IS-2 would win. However, there are very rarely 1v1 situations in CoH, and since Axis support tends to be better, then in a real match the Panther might win.

the is2 even has issues whit 2 (the replacement for stug in tov reward forgot the name srrry) it barely 1 that got killed for 50% by a t34 so oped isnt the is2

You mean the Quasi Marder1/2 (Assault Gun) thing that's
the reward Unit for the StuG in Wehr ;)
8 Pöp (not 4!!)... I prefer StuG myself :(

WartyX
thx, you on the other hand had missed out my point completely... I would love to see some competitive 2v2 match up as opposed to some 1v1 noob bash nothing more, that could give me some more insight of how the gameplay will look like.

Regarding TOV units all of them are bs (well maybe not PE) but the gwagon with 250dmg? the roo loaded with 2xpiats with 360 at dmg output? The whole TOV was an epic fail as you can't balance the game while introducing new units lol anyway my point was that it might not be such a good idea to balance soviets units in comparison with tov units, on the other hand it seems like relic doesn't really care about those issues... I just hope you're gonna react a bit faster than relic if some units turns out as op...

Don't get me wrong I really do appreciate all the work you've did and I wish you all the best with this mod I'm just concern about the balance which is the main issue when it comes to competitive multiplayer games.

I think Relic gave up when all the cheaters started showing up.
As for balance, well, it's a game. Sure, a general balance is
preferable, but absolute balance cannot be achieved unless
all units are the same : AKA : Chess.

We want flavor? So balance is a lot harder to achieve.

Reminds me of something blizzard said :
Balance shall be achieved the day everyone complains equally :)

Loupblanc wrote:

I think Relic gave up when all the cheaters started showing up.
As for balance, well, it's a game. Sure, a general balance is
preferable, but absolute balance cannot be achieved unless
all units are the same : AKA : Chess.

We want flavor? So balance is a lot harder to achieve.

Reminds me of something blizzard said :
Balance shall be achieved the day everyone complains equally :)

I agree, there will always be a mild amount of "unbalanced" issues. My problem with companies like Blizzard and such that say that shit is, they can't find a happy medium themselves let alone for games.

They make a game and act like people aren't going to complain. They drag their feet about making changes. Then do these SWEEPING changes that weren't needed and screw everything up. Then get pissy with people when they scream again about new issues.

In MMOs classes get nerfed, in RTS units get nerfed, in FPS weapons get nerfed. The companies can mock the public (who buys their product, keeps them employed and allows them to sit their fat asses behind their desk) all they want for crying about unbalanced stuff but it seems to me if they really cared about their fan base they would listen to what the supporters said and also have an excellent team of testers (not these scrubs, like seriously good players in the communities, depending on the game) to play and give feedback and test new ideas.

The way companies do stuff nowadays it's like "We'll leave "X" feature broken for "X" time and then nerf it, and make something else OP so we can nerf that later". It's very frustrating with these big companies. Where as with smaller "grass roots" operations like these, people seem to care more.