My Final Suggestion

This post is meant for the developers of the Eastern Front, and is NOT meant to be directed at or commented by the other users here.  It is my wish that the developers at least take some of this into consideration.  This is a very long post, so if any developer even reads this, I'd be very honored already.

I think the Eastern Front mod is really a great achievement.  The units really look like CoH material that Relic actually made, not something hastily modded, which makes this mod the best CoH mod by far.

However after seeing the video, I'm still worried about the USSR balance.  I understand that in theory Soviet troops not being able to retreat should give them a huge disadvantage early game to make up for those IS-2s.  However, in practice there are a few things I like to mention.

1) Most importantly, good players rarely need to retreat infantry in the first place, and less importantly, the Major's fire-up ability and the eventual upgrade eventually nullify that disadvantage more or less.

2) Those "soggy biscuits" aren't so soggy after all.  Now, I noticed they were in green cover when encountering the volks (they won), but when they first charged the MG, they took almost no damage at all...even USA Rangers take more damage.

3) Those IS-2s seem to have Tiger health bars...PAKs didn't even dent their health.  Now, I understand that IS-2s are monster tanks as they were in history, but I suggest that only 2 (per player) can be allowed to be present on the battlefield at a time, and a minor health decrease.
Why?
Some may suggest that the King Tiger and Panzer 4 was a close match for those 2 IS-2s, but one needs to realize that the King Tiger is a Doctrine call-in, and a one time deal.  IS-2s can be built over and over again.  Now imagine if the Wehrmacht player did not have the CP for the King Tiger yet by the time the IS-2s are out.  Or, if the Wehrmacht player chose Blitzkrieg or Defensive doctrine instead...a lone Tiger vs a few IS-2s...hmmm...  Again I understand that the Wehrmact player did not play like a pro at all, and had the PAK guns been supporting the King Tiger things might have been different.  But overall, the PAK guns did very little damage to the IS-2s, and the King Tiger would have been doomed anyhow.  Again from my observations, the IS-2 at its current stage is vastly superior to the Panther.  In addition, the road to T4 for Wehrmacht and the road to tanks for USSR seem to cost the same amount of fuel.  However, the unnecessary USSR upgrades do not cost fuel, but the much-needed Wehrmacht upgrades do.  This causes the IS-2s to be made quickly and at a less expense.

These are my suggestions and their justifications.  Thanks for reading.

Last edited January 14, 2010 at 6:05 PM by Chancellor

You raise some good points. However, the beta testers have concluded that the current build has reasonable enough balance. Obviously we can fix recurring holes in balance after release.

Chancellor wrote: Again from my observations, the IS-2 at its current stage is vastly superior to the Panther.

Dont assume anything until you try the mod. There was an earlier video of 3 hotchikiss tanks taking down an IS-2.

Chancellor wrote:However, the unnecessary USSR upgrades do not cost fuel, but the much-needed Wehrmacht upgrades do.  This causes the IS-2s to be made quickly and at a less expense.[/b]

True, but soviets cannot secure resources so fuel income is lower if the wehrmact player secures even 1 point.

At this stage, wait for the mod to release and then come here and complain about balance. Until then, just be patient for a bit

I'm totally for the limitation of the IS2 to 2 max/Player
at a time, with stipulation that they can be re-called :)
I hate it when players only call in Churchills, grr :p
- Also a T34 call-in :)
Would help make T34 the spam tank and not the IS2.
I argued a long time ago about this, that once you had
access to the IS2, I'd see little point in making T34s...

I've said this before and i'll say it again - PAKS... PAKS are the way forward for combating the Soviets.  I don't care much for your assumptions about them taking on heavy armour since all you have to go on is a 30 minute video...

Regardez the situation -

I was playing a game earlier today, I had an ISU-152 (remember, this is literally the Soviets King Tiger) trying to take on a SINGLE Pak... the ISU kept missing, and missing and missing... by the time the ISU scored a hit, it was already down to about 20% health... had there been 2 Paks, the ISU would've been dead since it neither has the speed nor the agility to back out of a fight.
The IS-2 has less health and a smaller gun than an ISU, it cannot destroy a PAK in one hit like the super indestructable megatank that people seem to think it is, so its chances against 2 Paks are even more remote.


The King Tiger is very vulnerable when it is not supported. I'm not the best player in the world, but i've watched my fair share of shoutcasts and I keep seeing the same pattern with peoples usage of the King Tiger; extending the assault without support, getting caught in a trap, forcing it back without micro, dying a painful death... just like our shoutcast.

I can bet you would not be complaining if the Wehrmacht had won, eh? Mr complainy pants...

BurroDiablo wrote:
I've said this before and i'll say it again - PAKS... PAKS are the way forward for combating the Soviets.  I don't care much for your assumptions about them taking on heavy armour since all you have to go on is a 30 minute video...

Regardez the situation -

I was playing a game earlier today, I had an ISU-152 (remember, this is literally the Soviets King Tiger) trying to take on a SINGLE Pak... the ISU kept missing, and missing and missing... by the time the ISU scored a hit, it was already down to about 20% health... had there been 2 Paks, the ISU would've been dead since it neither has the speed nor the agility to back out of a fight.
The IS-2 has less health and a smaller gun than an ISU, it cannot destroy a PAK in one hit like the super indestructable megatank that people seem to think it is, so its chances against 2 Paks are even more remote.


The King Tiger is very vulnerable when it is not supported. I'm not the best player in the world, but i've watched my fair share of shoutcasts and I keep seeing the same pattern with peoples usage of the King Tiger; extending the assault without support, getting caught in a trap, forcing it back without micro, dying a painful death... just like our shoutcast.

I can bet you would not be complaining if the Wehrmacht had won, eh? Mr complainy pants...

Did you read the post at all?  I saw the IS-2 take out 2 grenadiers with its first shot at them, and PAKS barely dent its health.  That's why I assume.  I thought if it was that accurate against Grenadiers, then it would also be accurate against the PAK.

Last edited January 15, 2010 at 2:21 AM by Chancellor

Chancellor, your becoming worse than Loup pretty quick. Stop complaining about something you have not even played. I am pretty sure 2 of the lead developers know more about the mod than you do at this point

Chancellor wrote:

BurroDiablo wrote:
I've said this before and i'll say it again - PAKS... PAKS are the way forward for combating the Soviets.  I don't care much for your assumptions about them taking on heavy armour since all you have to go on is a 30 minute video...

Regardez the situation -

I was playing a game earlier today, I had an ISU-152 (remember, this is literally the Soviets King Tiger) trying to take on a SINGLE Pak... the ISU kept missing, and missing and missing... by the time the ISU scored a hit, it was already down to about 20% health... had there been 2 Paks, the ISU would've been dead since it neither has the speed nor the agility to back out of a fight.
The IS-2 has less health and a smaller gun than an ISU, it cannot destroy a PAK in one hit like the super indestructable megatank that people seem to think it is, so its chances against 2 Paks are even more remote.


The King Tiger is very vulnerable when it is not supported. I'm not the best player in the world, but i've watched my fair share of shoutcasts and I keep seeing the same pattern with peoples usage of the King Tiger; extending the assault without support, getting caught in a trap, forcing it back without micro, dying a painful death... just like our shoutcast.

I can bet you would not be complaining if the Wehrmacht had won, eh? Mr complainy pants...

Did you read the post at all?  I saw the IS-2 take out 2 grenadiers with its first shot at them, and PAKS barely dent its health.  That's why I assume.  I thought if it was that accurate against Grenadiers, then it would also be accurate against the PAK.

Yes, I did... did you read my post at all? Let me point out the bit you may have missed

QuoteI don't care much for your assumptions about them taking on heavy armour since all you have to go on is a 30 minute video.

1. The Pak is a 50mm gun... it fired Four shots at the IS-2 and THREE of those shots penetrated the frontal armour knocking off a quarter of its health. Had there been 2 Paks (as I stated in my post above) that would been half of its health off. Had there been a Tank there too flanking it, the IS-2 would have most probably died.

2. I see Tigers take out massive blobs of infantry all the time, its probably the best AP tank in the entire game. The Grenadiers you mention were on VERY low health and were being assaulted by 3 squads of up-gunned conscripts, if the IS-2 didn't kill them, the conscripts would have. God forbid these men made from nothing but bone, blood and organs get obliterated by a 122mm gun...

ahhh ok...I'll shut up until I actually play the mod now.  ;D

I've requested that the IS-2s power/numbers be culled a bit. A coordinated mass charge of these things may just be a little too much... I took 5 of them in the new Berlin map and swept across it like a tide, taking out pretty much everything. One IS-2 is fine, but a whole Army of them is a different story.

THANK YOU!

Mmm hmm I'd also support some kind of cap on the amount of IS-2's buildable at a single time, 2 or 3 would be about right I guess.

But then I'll have to see once I've played the damn thing  :)

As I see it their is two categories of "issues." Balance issues and core design issues. This is an example of a balance issue. Balance issues are esay to fix which pacths and is hard to find before you have played the game. Prerelease balance sugestions are more often than not just speculations.

What we should talk about is core design isses. An example of one of those would be in commanden counqer 3 where you got resurces so fast that the best stragi was to spam a unit, nomatter how many balance change they made, this was still the best stragy because is was better to use your time builing more unit that useing your unit well. These problems should be find and soleved early on becasue otherwise it is very hard to make a balanced and fun game.

I am consered that the way Russia use munition could be such a problem. You might run out of useful upgrades later on in the macth which will make munition useless, or not very benificial. I also don't see what the designers wanted to achive which useing munition for upgrades and have free but slow abilities. I think that the new faction would have been deiverse enough with out these change.

However I have not played the game yet and I am theirfor not saying that it can't work.

For all upgrades, in the current build, it requires around 2500 munitions! This is very unlikely you will get in a 1v1 with no OPs (soviets can't build OPs). In team games, the team mate (if none-russian at least) will require munition, so...

Ok I am not coserned about running out of upgrades anymore, but I would still like to know why you choosed to make the Russian's upgrades cost munition.

Alot of the upgrades are giving the troops, better guns, Satchel Charges and other things that would require munitions.

Tanks also can recieve more ammo types.

making it so it cost munitions to get these things makes sense

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=1274.msg14001#msg14001

Yea, my concerns are about force density. I don't fear
seeing 4x+ Tigers in one single group :) Churchill massing
is a monstrosity I am sooooo against (Really should be a cap
on those) same with Firefly massing, etc

I'm not against IS2 being in the game. I just think there
should be nice mechanics in place to ... force suggest ? ;)
Spamming T34's and not IS2's.

4-5x IS2's = Game over :p

Yea that's what I've been fearing all along with my original thread.  I think T34s should really be the spam tank instead...if IS-2s were able to be spammed like that, I really fear the worst.  If there was the limit like 2x IS-2s per player max at any point in the game as I suggested, I think it would be great.  Its not like IS-2s are even doctrinal or that expensive, so they can be remade after one dies. 

Panthers don't benefit in terms of tank-vs-tank battles after Vet1 (.85 received damage).  Vet2 just gives them a mg gunner and Vet3 gives them side-skirts against infantry AT weapons.  http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/wehrmacht/units/panther.html

Now if a Panther can really NEARLY stand up toe to toe with a IS-2, then I guess limitations wouldn't be that needed, except there's the fact that Panthers suck vs infantry, but IS-2 vs infantry is...idk...gotta try the mod to judge that  ;)

Last edited January 15, 2010 at 6:50 PM by Chancellor

Eh. Didn't think about that. Yea, vet2/vet3 are vs infantry!!
Exactly, while I don't think Panther should be spammable
like that (Cap of 4 is nice), it IS primarly vs Tanks only. While
IS2 is all-purpose. I'd be okay with a limit of 2. Hmm, I like
Iron Cross mod where you need to buy an extra unlock before
can make Panthers :) (Similar to PE Panther gruppen).

That I can make IS2 at about the same time I can make my
2nd T34 is... *Shudders*

*ENCOURAGE THE T34 !!!*