Ideas for Italian Command Tree

I will post here some ideas for the italians in the reward doctrine tree:


Ideas for Italian Command Tree:

- Territorial Control

2CP Scout Motorcycle

(An italian soldier of "Bersaglieri" on "Moto guzzi" armed with MG Breda 30)

2CP "Camicie Nere"

(Call in a Battalion of Camicie Nere who will help to keep frontline clear from partisans and enemy sniper)

3CP "Semovente L40"

(Call in a Semovente L40 who will bring artillery firepower on battlefield)

- Winter Warfare

2CP "Alpini Tolmezzo"

(Call in a Battalion of Alpini, troops specialized for Mountain and Winter Warfare)

2CP "Courage of the Alpini"

(For 30 seconds all soldiers are inspired by Alpini's courage can't suffer suppression fire)

3CP "Macchi M.C.202 Folgore"

(When the land is too steep for the advance you can call in the fighter Macchi MC 202 who will attack enemy position)

- Aggressive Defense

2CP ATG 47/32 Mod.38

(Allows you to construct a 47/32 Anti tank Gun, successfully used against medium armor in Russia and in particular in the Don Area)

2CP Auxilliar Defense Troops

(Call in a Group composed of: 3 man squad equipped with the excellent Mortar 81mm, 3 man squad equipped with HMG Breda Mod.30, 5 man squad of "Bersaglieri".)

3CP Italian's Tank Support Group

(Call in a Semovente L40 and L6/40 Tank)

Last edited June 29, 2015 at 1:48 PM by Darren Marshall

Quote2CP Scout Motorcycle

(An italian soldier of "Bersaglieri" on "Moto guzzi" armed with MG Breda 30)

Problem with this layout is that you have a Motorcycle at 2CP which is a bad idea since they are the weakest (HP wise) vehicles in CoH, arriving so late it will probably become obsolete.

Quote2CP "Camicie Nere"

(Call in a Battalion of Camicie Nere who will help to keep frontline clear from partisans and enemy sniper)

It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

Quote3CP "Semovente L40"

(Call in a Semovente L40 who will bring artillery firepower on battlefield)

Eh, the Semovente L40 is an anti tank vehicle not an artillery :p.

Quote2CP "Alpini Tolmezzo"

(Call in a Battalion of Alpini, troops specialized for Mountain and Winter Warfare)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

Quote3CP "Macchi M.C.202 Folgore"

(When the land is too steep for the advance you can call in the fighter Macchi MC 202 who will attack enemy position)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description. Strafing run? Bombing run?

Quote2CP ATG 47/32 Mod.38

(Allows you to construct a 47/32 Anti tank Gun, successfully used against medium armor in Russia and in particular in the Don Area)

Would be fun to have at 2CP, soft AT and probably act as an infantry gun (same as ISG)? (have a barrage ability)

Quote2CP Auxilliar Defense Troops

[...] 5 man squad of "Bersaglieri".)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

Quote
3CP Italian's Tank Support Group

(Call in a Semovente L40 and L6/40 Tank)

Might arrive surprisingly well in the game.

So yah, your concept has lots of gaps. Back to the drawing board soldier!

I'm against using Semovente 47/32 and Fiat L6/40 as late game call-ins though. Unless they do something special, but regularly the former sucked against medium tanks, so, by the time you get it, its already obsolete.

The "Macchi M.C.202 Folgore" is a fighter plane with a similar role than the P47 Thunderbolt, so I guess he suggest a strafing run.

Uh... It's just call-ins?

There are no passive nor active abilities. You need to balance your doctrine. There won't be enough manpower in the world to call all of this in, even if you had a resource blitz. Seriously.

Also, we are sticking to the 3X3 layout for doctrines, not less or more.

So, I suggest you take a look at how the regular doctrines for Americans and Wehrmacht are designed, and then return with a more appropriate design.

Walentin wrote:

Quote2CP Scout Motorcycle

(An italian soldier of "Bersaglieri" on "Moto guzzi" armed with MG Breda 30)

Problem with this layout is that you have a Motorcycle at 2CP which is a bad idea since they are the weakest (HP wise) vehicles in CoH, arriving so late it will probably become obsolete.

Quote2CP "Camicie Nere"

(Call in a Battalion of Camicie Nere who will help to keep frontline clear from partisans and enemy sniper)

It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

Quote3CP "Semovente L40"

(Call in a Semovente L40 who will bring artillery firepower on battlefield)

Eh, the Semovente L40 is an anti tank vehicle not an artillery :p.

Quote2CP "Alpini Tolmezzo"

(Call in a Battalion of Alpini, troops specialized for Mountain and Winter Warfare)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

Quote3CP "Macchi M.C.202 Folgore"

(When the land is too steep for the advance you can call in the fighter Macchi MC 202 who will attack enemy position)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description. Strafing run? Bombing run?

Quote2CP ATG 47/32 Mod.38

(Allows you to construct a 47/32 Anti tank Gun, successfully used against medium armor in Russia and in particular in the Don Area)

Would be fun to have at 2CP, soft AT and probably act as an infantry gun (same as ISG)? (have a barrage ability)

Quote2CP Auxilliar Defense Troops

[...] 5 man squad of "Bersaglieri".)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

Quote
3CP Italian's Tank Support Group

(Call in a Semovente L40 and L6/40 Tank)

Might arrive surprisingly well in the game.

So yah, your concept has lots of gaps. Back to the drawing board soldier!

I appreciate constructive criticism. I will try to improve the ideas. The major goals it is balance?

The major goal is a well themed and balanced doctrine that will add new ideas, new strategics and new gameplay moments for the faction.
A well designed doctrine is a synergy between active and passive abilities. You will always need stuff for munition sink. Call-ins should be limited and well placed.
It is difficult to create a doctrine. It is not looking in wikipedia for italian keywords and make a list out of this search results. Have a feeling for the faction and try to add new moments to this feeling.
Thats a CoH EF doctrine.

Last edited June 29, 2015 at 10:17 PM by Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

Italian Command Tree (2.0)


- Frontline Defense





2CP "Bersaglieri" Battalion (300MP)
Call in the support of one L6/40 Tank with a "Bersaglieri" squad, these soldiers are the elite of Italian Army, armed with Carcano Mod.38 and hand granade. They had a special ability called "Carica dei Bersaglieri", this ability will be active for 30 seconds, the squad will be able to move very rapidly and can't suffer suppression fire.



2CP "Macchi M.C.202" Strafing Run (150MU)
The Italian's Fighter will attack the enemy with a devastating strafing run.



3CP Anti-Tank Reserve Group (500MP+100MU)
When the frontline are colapsing due to a enemy tank attack you can call in the AT Reserve Group. Composing by two L40 and a squad of italians pioneer who armed with panzerbuchse had the ability to construct AT-Roadblocks and AT-Mines.

Second part of italian command tree

- Behind the front

2CP Secured supply lines (200MP)
With the italians protecting the supply lines in the behind, the frontline can recive more supplies than before. This ability will increase by 50% MU and Fuel for 2 minute.


2CP "Battle of Isbuscenskij" (100MP)
The heroic battle of Isbuscenskij see the italians cavalry charge and defeate the soviets. The news of this heroic battle will grow the morale of troops. All troops recive a bonus for 30 seconds and they can't suffer suppression fire.

3CP Italian Off-Map Artillery (300MU)
The big italians artillery behind the front will destroy the enemy positions. 30 Seconds of artillery bombing on the indicated point of the field.

Certainly it looks better this way. Hypothetically talking:

Darren wrote:
2CP "Bersaglieri" Battalion (300MP)
Call in the support of one L6/40 Tank with a "Bersaglieri" squad, these soldiers are the elite of Italian Army, armed with Carcano Mod.38 and hand granade. They had a special ability called "Carica dei Bersaglieri", this ability will be active for 30 seconds, the squad will be able to move very rapidly and can't suffer suppression fire.

It is too soon to have Elite units roaming everywhere :). We can give them the Breda M30 as upgrade and they would have the ability to throw grenades.

Quote2CP "Macchi M.C.202" Strafing Run (150MU)
The Italian's Fighter will attack the enemy with a devastating strafing run.

I'm not sure if we can get new models at this point, so it would use the Messerschmitt Bf 109G instead. Although I agree the plane seems iconic for Italians.

Quote3CP Anti-Tank Reserve Group (500MP+100MU)
When the frontline are colapsing due to a enemy tank attack you can call in the AT Reserve Group. Composing by two L40 and a squad of italians pioneer who armed with panzerbuchse had the ability to construct AT-Roadblocks and AT-Mines.

I recognize the tune but let's change the rhythm. Let's move the Bersaglieri squad here and the Pioneer squad to take the former's place in the other ability. But the most important part, you would need to convince a player about how he/she could use a couple of Semovente 47/32 if they come so late. What use would have they at this part of the game? They look like veterancy gifts to enemy players because they lack good armour, their guns are crap, they use some population that you could be using for something more useful and the worse part is that you get two of them :-\! To be honest in their current state I doubt they could be very useful in midgame either due to the lack of turret.

Also, not because it is an Italian tree it means it will need to have Italian units only. So, I'd add an upgraded(means armoured skirts and gunner) Beutepanzer T-34/76, give two squads of Bersaglieri and perhaps one Semovente 47/32 for 800MP. Putting the brave actions of Italian soldiers aside, they won battles thanks to German armoured support too.


Here comes the second part:

Darren wrote:2CP Secured supply lines (200MP)
With the italians protecting the supply lines in the behind, the frontline can recive more supplies than before. This ability will increase by 50% MU and Fuel for 2 minute.

This seems fine I guess. If not can be tweaked.

Quote2CP "Battle of Isbuscenskij" (100MU)
The heroic battle of Isbuscenskij see the italians cavalry charge and defeate the soviets. The news of this heroic battle will grow the morale of troops. All troops recive a bonus for 30 seconds and they can't suffer suppression fire.

Nomenclature aside, the idea might work with a bit of tweaking.

Quote3CP Italian Off-Map Artillery (300MU)
The big italians artillery behind the front will destroy the enemy positions. 30 Seconds of artillery bombing on the indicated point of the field.

Seems fine.

Italian Command Tree Final Version.

Italian Command Tree (3.0)


- Frontline Defense



2CP Anti-Tank Reserve Group (250MP)
When the frontline are colapsing due to a enemy tank attack you can call in the AT Reserve Group. Composing by two L40 and a squad of italians pioneer who armed with panzerbuchse had the ability to construct AT-Roadblocks and AT-Mines.



2CP "Macchi M.C.202" Strafing Run (150MU)
The Italian's Fighter will attack the enemy with a devastating strafing run.



3CP Heavy Defense Support (800MP)
Call in the support of one L6/40 Tank (Who can be upgraded with armoured skirts) and a Beutepanzer T-34/76 with 2 "Bersaglieri" squad, these soldiers are the elite of Italian Army, armed with Carcano Mod.38  (Can be upgraded to Breda M30), AT Granade and Hand Granade. They had a special ability called "Carica dei Bersaglieri", this ability will be active for 30 seconds, the squad will be able to move very rapidly and can't suffer suppression fire.


- Behind the front

2CP Secured supply lines (200MP)
With the italians protecting the supply lines in the behind, the frontline can recive more supplies than before. This ability will increase by 50% MU and Fuel for 2 minute.


2CP "Battle of Isbuscenskij" (100MP)
The heroic battle of Isbuscenskij see the italians cavalry charge and defeate the soviets. The news of this heroic battle will grow the morale of troops. All troops recive a bonus for 30 seconds and they can't suffer suppression fire.

3CP Italian Off-Map Artillery (300MU)
The big italians artillery behind the front will destroy the enemy positions. 30 Seconds of artillery bombing on the indicated point of the field.

Last edited July 1, 2015 at 11:08 AM by Darren Marshall

Just a thought:

Would it be possible to add HEAT ("Efetto Pronto") rounds ability to the Semovente as a vet ability, to give it more usefulness later on in the game? I guess it could be an ability similar to the US ATG APC rounds.
Also, since I believe it is already modeled, would it be possible to have a flame tank upgrade to the  L6/40? That would make it much more useful for the time of the game it would come, being a fast infantry killer.

I am not sure if adding the Italian doctrine to the German side would do any good. Most of them fought bravely, but many did not want to fight under Mussolini and were just conscripted to fight and were not under the same fanaticism as the Germans nor did they really like each other that much. The only war they won was in Ethiopia, where the enemy would just be using old spears. Additionally, they ended up switching sides like they did in WWI so in some cases they should actually be fighting against the Germans.

Or we can follow through with all this and have a German version of the conscripts. 10 man squad of Italian soldiers with low-quality training to make up with their numbers, and they all have rifles too. If possible, we can incorporate some sort of surrendering mechanism (like BotB mod) where they lose a certain amount of health/people and are under suppression and the squad surrenders, but only for this squad though, since they were known very well to surrender to the Allies. They will be very cheap and easy to reinforce with only 200 manpower per squad, since they will be the only unit susceptible to surrender and they will be like conscripts in battle, perhaps even worse.

Last edited July 4, 2015 at 6:46 PM by Agent Thompson

@Agent Thompson
Come on, that's basically the same thing people say about Romanians. Although as you can see, it is a bit tricky to make a good tree for them due to the equipment used.

@Darren Marshall
I disagree on your tree in two parts of it:

1) The first ability in LHS is, so far, more or less the same than the one in the Romanian tree, just than you get two Semoventes 47/32 and one squad of Italian pioneers instead of one Panzer 38t and one Romanian sapper squad. I'd not do that. It might be better to give the L6/40. Also, getting two of them might be too much given the cost of the unlock. Let alone the L6/40 works better as a scout unit too(like the Soviet T-60).

2) It is the first time I hear about the L6/40 beig able to use armoured skirts. I don't think it ever used it and even if we think about giving it just to give it an edge against enemy vehicles, that upgrade would be better placed for the Semoventes 47/32. Nonetheless, neither of them used such thing and both models are already finished and exported to CoH so no further additions would be planned. The only upgrade available for the AC would be the flamethrower one and the Semovente 47/32 itself in case it would be necessary.

Semovente 47/32 can be used in the group call-in, given it has the stats to back it up. Adding the "Effeto Pronto" ability(like @Capitanloco6 suggests) to make it have better penetration sounds good, but it might need a bit of tweaking to make it attractive and useful. You can't just spend munitions to active HEAT shots at every tank because it bounce everything else you shoot at it. Perhaps an overdrive-like ability, perhaps camouflage, perhaps lockdown like Brits tanks with sandbags, etc. And that's what I meant last time I asked you about what where you planning to do with this unit in late game.

Last edited July 4, 2015 at 9:37 PM by Enrique 'Blackbishop' E.

Agent wrote:
I am not sure if adding the Italian doctrine to the German side would do any good. Most of them fought bravely, but many did not want to fight under Mussolini and were just conscripted to fight and were not under the same fanaticism as the Germans nor did they really like each other that much. The only war they won was in Ethiopia, where the enemy would just be using old spears. Additionally, they ended up switching sides like they did in WWI so in some cases they should actually be fighting against the Germans.

Or we can follow through with all this and have a German version of the conscripts. 10 man squad of Italian soldiers with low-quality training to make up with their numbers, and they all have rifles too. If possible, we can incorporate some sort of surrendering mechanism (like BotB mod) where they lose a certain amount of health/people and are under suppression and the squad surrenders, but only for this squad though, since they were known very well to surrender to the Allies. They will be very cheap and easy to reinforce with only 200 manpower per squad, since they will be the only unit susceptible to surrender and they will be like conscripts in battle, perhaps even worse.

I think you must read some books about italy in WWII.
Italy biggest problem was the poor quality of his generals. Unfortunately only 2-3 major generals was competent, like Giovanni Messe.
Another big problem was the absolutely deficit of materials, in fact the ARMIR fought with a very few Anti-Tank equipment, however they hold the line several times against the soviets offensive.
It is very important to remember who the soviets at the Don area broke through the romanian sector, 'cause they lack of AT equipment too.
I suggest you to read "The War in Russia" written by General Giovanni Messe.

Hi, what about making a tree with paratroopers of Folgore as special unit and airstryke of Macchi, and if possible P108 Bomber?

We try to work with the historical materials that were used on the eastern front.
Neither the Folgore Division nor the P.108 bomber were used at the eastern front. Basing on our policy to work with the historical arsenal we wont use them for an italian doctrine as part of the Ostheer.
All in all basing on my personal opinion it dont make any sense to make an italian doctrine for the Ostheer. But this is just my personal point of view and not the point of view of the team. At the end the team will decided about the fate of the italian army as part of the EF mod.

Did you guys get a decision about the italians in EF?
Hope in a good decision, this mod pay attention on the historical side, and have in the game all factions of the EF without the italians would be very disappointing.

So we are gonna have French too? Because both Italian and French faction are kinda pathetic ya know... Just have Italian as part of command tree is good I guess

Dann88 wrote:
So we are gonna have French too? Because both Italian and French faction are kinda pathetic ya know... Just have Italian as part of command tree is good I guess

It's not the same thing, Italy participated with 230.000 soldiers by the Regio Esercito, 65 Planes by Regia Aeronautica and the Regia Marina sent the MAS to fight in Black Sea and Ladoga Lake.
French participated with volunteers only, and the size of LVF was about 6.000 - 7.000 soldiers.

And i'm talking about a Italian command Tree, not about a new unique faction.

So, yes, your intervertion it's not really right.

I have myself been working on an Italian faction for like 2-3 years now, mostly cause I think they are cool and most of the time you dont see them in games. Which is kinda weird and lame though cause they were on of the ¨main¨ axis countries. At the same time however I do understand many of the times why they choose not to potray Italy in games.

What you can do, is to borrow the main theme from my idea ^^ That let Italy be a faction by itself. But let Italy just like the Soviets and ostheer be a potrayall of their entire time in the war. Just like the Soviets and their early units are suppost to be 1941 and then later into the games they are 1944-45 units. Do the same with Italy! Let they potray several themes in the same team. I mean nobody is complaing about Ostheer using Panzer III ( early war tank) together with the Tiger II ( late war.)

So for example let them start of as the ordinary royal Italian army with 1941-43 units and then later units are potraying the RSI ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic ) with units from 43-45. Sure the RSI might didnt have that much of a force , especially tanks. But just go with the idea that they got German crews but Italian tanks ( Like the P40 for example.)


By doing that, you can with the same faction let people play out Eastern front games and at the same time do an amazing Italian front. If the Soviets and the Ostheer can do it, Italy can as well ;P

Last edited August 8, 2015 at 10:52 PM by Sommarkatze

Darren wrote:

Dann88 wrote:
So we are gonna have French too? Because both Italian and French faction are kinda pathetic ya know... Just have Italian as part of command tree is good I guess

It's not the same thing, Italy participated with 230.000 soldiers by the Regio Esercito, 65 Planes by Regia Aeronautica and the Regia Marina sent the MAS to fight in Black Sea and Ladoga Lake.
French participated with volunteers only, and the size of LVF was about 6.000 - 7.000 soldiers.

And i'm talking about a Italian command Tree, not about a new unique faction.

So, yes, your intervertion it's not really right.

What I meant is their weapons are kinda pathetic, so call in of the Italians mostly infantries, and the French I said actually the French on the Allied faction side not the Clichy French.

Sommarkatze wrote:
I have myself been working on an Italian faction for like 2-3 years now, mostly cause I think they are cool and most of the time you dont see them in games. Which is kinda weird and lame though cause they were on of the ¨main¨ axis countries. At the same time however I do understand many of the times why they choose not to potray Italy in games.

What you can do, is to borrow the main theme from my idea ^^ That let Italy be a faction by itself. But let Italy just like the Soviets and ostheer be a potrayall of their entire time in the war. Just like the Soviets and their early units are suppost to be 1941 and then later into the games they are 1944-45 units. Do the same with Italy! Let they potray several themes in the same team. I mean nobody is complaing about Ostheer using Panzer III ( early war tank) together with the Tiger II ( late war.)

So for example let them start of as the ordinary royal Italian army with 1941-43 units and then later units are potraying the RSI ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic ) with units from 43-45. Sure the RSI might didnt have that much of a force , especially tanks. But just go with the idea that they got German crews but Italian tanks ( Like the P40 for example.)


By doing that, you can with the same faction let people play out Eastern front games and at the same time do an amazing Italian front. If the Soviets and the Ostheer can do it, Italy can as well ;P

Are you working on italian faction?

From time to time yes, I have taken all my experiance from this beloved forum and have been working on an Italian faction yes. Just gotta get my thumb out my ass one day and actually post it here. I wanted to draw concept art to each unit as well ( to sell the idea much better :>) and that takes some time as well.

What I learnt from the beloved EF team when coming up with an suggestion/concept or game idea in general is these simple rules.

- It has to be useful, Sure maybe it where around and was used during the war. But do it bring anything to the game?

- balance. This one is super important, you cant just say, THEY GOT ANTI TANK GRENADES FOR 20 AMU. Each unit gotta have weaknesses and stuff its good against.
For example Panzer Elits Pz4. Its a beast against infantry but terrible against other tanks. I would actually say to start with when you are coming up with an unit to make it have more weaknesses than good stuff. And from there develop the unit slowly. Otherwise you often end up with an pretty OP unit.

If you choose to give a unit somethings thats really good. The unit should at the same time have to pay for that skill somehow. Once again the PE Pz4. During its super abilety it cant move, it takes time to deploy and it got cool down.

And my own favorite

- Unique.
This one is kind of related to the first rule , it has to be useful. But at the same time it gotta have its own unique style. Only to change the skins and weapons to Italians
doesnt make it unique. In the end you just gonna end up with an grenadier squad but with an Italian look. They can certainly be similar to something other factions have. But they need something thats unique to just them.

Do remember the balance thing though. Balance could even help you out to make it unique. Take my concept for the Italian Mg crew for example.

The Italian can purchase a team with an Breda M37. The M37 compared to the Germans Mg42 team is lighter .The M37 weigh around 19kg while the Mg42 with a tripod 25kg.

This mean the Italian crew deploy their Mg faster than an German one.

The italians do buy there mg team cheaper compared to the Germans as well.

The M37 however is not belt fed as the mg42 but magasine fed from 20 round clips. This means the M37 cant cover as much as the mg42 cause it has to reload. In game terms this means If the mg42 has an line of fire of 90 ° the M37 only has 45. This might sound pretty bad, but do remember it deploy much faster!

So there you got it. It has one good thing ( deploy faster). One disvantage ( cant cover that much) and this is not seen in any of the other Mgs in the game which makes it unique !

Sorry if it got a little messy. Hope it helped! : >

Last edited August 12, 2015 at 7:05 AM by Sommarkatze

I would love to see the Italian Forces as their own factions going from early war to the RSI, but I can see why that would be a problem for the development team.  It would take much longer to balance and update the factions.

Well. A hole new italian faction would be cool. But it would be a nightmare to balance 4 axis factions vs 3 or 3 alliied faction. I would be happy to see or help or organize an italian mod but unfortunately i dont have the key skills for this task (limited corsix, no 3d skills). All in all i'm afraid that we will never see an italian P40 or M13/40 tank in CoH  :(

I'm going to give this command tree a shot.

Abilities:

1: New Recruits: 200 - manpower

Unit production times and costs reduce by 50% temporarily.

2: Fight for your life!: 50 - munitions

Infantry units will increase their rate of fire and break suppression to try and defeat the enemy.

4: Cannone da 90/53:  Allows the Italian Engineer squad to build a Cannone da 90/53.



Support:

1: Infantry Assault Package: All base infantry units can be supplied with Berretta Modello 38s for 75 munitions.

2: Offmap Obice da 105/14 modello 18 barrage:  125 - Munitions

The Area is saturated by multiple Oblice Artillery pieces that are standing by, followed by smoke deployment in the area.

3: Semovente 105/25: 300 - manpower

Deploys a Semovente 105/25 tank destroyer to the battlefield. (Comes with hull down ability.)

Reward unit Carro Armato P40 tank. (Replaces Semovente 105/25.)

Apparently there is a mod that is inspired by the Eastern Front mod about the Southern Front. Can't find much info on it though.