OST Nerfed?

So no comments yet on the "new" OST?

Apart from the bugs the patch is nice so far, except a couple of things: the Ostheer should still build bunkers (which is now automatically an aid station), the biggest problem that I see is that AT units come way too late in the game and you need to spend a lot of fuel to get there - T3 building + 55fuel for research...

Lutzow wrote:
Apart from the bugs the patch is nice so far, except a couple of things: the Ostheer should still build bunkers (which is now automatically an aid station), the biggest problem that I see is that AT units come way too late in the game and you need to spend a lot of fuel to get there - T3 building + 55fuel for research...

yeah i couldn't get that aid station thing, isn't it exactly the same as the american one, collecting bodies and giving points? makes getting vet units hard if you don't go the doctrine with the medic supplies.
Also the bugs? i did see one XP unit totally blank but the rest i'm not sure yet, might be me having to relearn stuff.
eg got some landsers up to vet and chose medic but they didn't get the health packs on level one, is that a bug?

really miss the medic truck, used for great strategic purpose and really think the gameplay of the OST will suffer for its loss.

will have another go t'nite and see if i can spot more.

Well, actually the Ostheer does get a healing option: the very same medical concrete emplacement, when built in the base sector, produces a healing aura, just like the medic halftrack, or the American triage center. So now their mechanic is close to the American one: a healing building in your base sector, and casualty clearing buildings (which can also serve as reinforcement points) closer to the frontlines.
About the (formerly) medic veterancy, it is now replaced with a logistic vet (hence the crane depicted on its icon). It no longer allows you to use medkits, but instead makes reinforcement cheaper, upkeep lower, and also makes abilities like grenades cost less munitions. While the usefulness of this change is... arguable (personally, I liked the medkits more, even though they were overpriced and not really useful for their price), that's how it is in the current version.

Lutzow wrote:
Apart from the bugs the patch is nice so far, except a couple of things: the Ostheer should still build bunkers (which is now automatically an aid station), the biggest problem that I see is that AT units come way too late in the game and you need to spend a lot of fuel to get there - T3 building + 55fuel for research...

Depends. Against light vehicles you also can use upgraded Landsers with the Panzerbüchse. They`re underperforming a bit right now, but against a lone t70 or T90 they`re sufficient.
Also, you can play t4 instead of t3. Getting StuG IIIs is almost the same cost as upgrading tier 3, and they`re quite powerful, especially against light vehicles and infantry.

Jagers now are extremely powerful, and are now the best infantry in the game if you give them the assault package. These guys are the reasons as to why I easily win games vs the soviets now. Had 189 kills for one of them by the end.

I agree with the whole 'medic station' thing. The 'concrete emplacement' should still be the base form, with the medics being an upgrade (as should any other doctrinal versions). That said, I do like how the medic station itself works.

jonarus_drakus wrote:
I agree with the whole 'medic station' thing. The 'concrete emplacement' should still be the base form, with the medics being an upgrade (as should any other doctrinal versions). That said, I do like how the medic station itself works.

Thing is: the Basic concrete Emplacement served no purpose. Like People built the concrete Emplacement and immediately upgraded it to medic Station. That's why we decided to make the medic Station the Basic Thing to build instead.

right so now there is actually a reason to build pazerjagers? never really did before, me likes simple tech tree and more strategy which i find the OST use to do very well.
Ah never thought to try the medic station inside base.. did try one outside and couldn't get them to heal :D
still find it a bit weird that the mobile AT is classed as a assault weapon rather than available in defensive.
Another thing is the slowness in getting started, really struggle with the initial defensive mode now talking longer to kick in, making it slower to get more engineers which you now need more as one set needed to build medic station instead of truck.

Hendrik wrote:

jonarus_drakus wrote:
I agree with the whole 'medic station' thing. The 'concrete emplacement' should still be the base form, with the medics being an upgrade (as should any other doctrinal versions). That said, I do like how the medic station itself works.

Thing is: the Basic concrete Emplacement served no purpose. Like People built the concrete Emplacement and immediately upgraded it to medic Station. That's why we decided to make the medic Station the Basic Thing to build instead.

How do you mean served no purpose? It was great when you put an MG in it, giving you cover...

I think he meant, Ostheer as an offensive faction doesn't really need it. Same thing for the flak emplacement unfortunately.

I do like how the 'pak emplacement' version is Fortress Troops only, as that is the one doctrine that is actually trying to have  a defensive focus, and thus the only place where such an emplacement would 'fit'... Part of me would also still like to see a 'build-able' version of the 'base start' 2cm flak emplacements, though I have no idea where they'd fit doctrine wise...

So yeah, my (personal) idea would be to bring back the 'basic' empty emplacement as the 'base version', and give it different upgrade options based on doctrine:
1) Pak for 'Fortress Troops' (as it already is), and unlocked the exact same way.
2) 2cm (base start style) flak, under 'Support Troops' (It kinda works with their 'aerial focus'), unlocked be 'confederate support' (due to its 2cp cost, and the 'explanation' of the extra support making for sufficient supplies to operate large numbers of such weapons). This would probably require the (re)creating of a full 2-3-man crew version with a pop-cap cost (to align it with the 'pak' version that Fortress Troops have).
3) medic pit should stay generic unless some other generic healing system were available (bring back medic half-track?), if another system for healing was available, then the 'medic pit' can become doctrinal under 'Elite Troops', unlocked by the same upgrade as Jagers (Field medics being 'specialists' and all).

Anyway, mostly just spit-balling here, figured I should try to give some suggestions rather than just saying I don't like stuff... ^^;

~JD

Well if that's the concept you're following.. I've always thought of Ostheer as a nice well-rounded army, offensive at early-war defensive at late and it has been so till the patch. I liked it more before with concrete emplacements upgradable with the aid station and the medic halftrack for healing. Just my opinion  :)

We have discussed something along these ideas in the past but we never agreed on them :\. But don't worry, we will continue discussing other ways to get it.

I'm do not agree on some aspects of the Ostheer army, and hopefully we can change them for the next updates, being the Flak Emplacement (or lack of it) one of them.

i think the one the OST misses is alternate retreat functions, they make the game much more unpredictable and allow a wide variety of uses.

IMO, For offensive type, OH should have some sort of abilities like PE or Soviets so that the offensive ability can be utilized, such as Field Hospital reinforcements since forward barracks is not so useful for them.

they can use the halftrack for reinforcement, if that's what you mean by abilities, do have to say that  the kuglebitz and mauder 2 should really  be in the support mode, pak 40 without upgrade and mauder with. neither are really "offence" weapons

Halftrack comes in T3 which is a bit late compared to most others come from T2. Kugelblitz is in support mode right and Marder II has the long range and accuracy (and speed) which can make it as a semi aggresive unit, which Pak40 (no speed) lacks of.

Need mods to tell as they identified OH as offensive compared to Wehr, like PE (which means Wehr is more into defensive).

but if you take it logically you can use the HQ reinforcement in early game which is really when you are on backfoot playing devensively until you are at t3 which is when you are getting more offensive ;)
Mauder is not really offenseive weapon, easily flanked by troops and vunerable to nades, its speed is no good in offensive role because of this, you have to keep it out of reach.
Would be nice to see a re-crewable version to adjust the balance and not use swamping of them if they were moved back to support role.
None of the existing anti-tank solutions early on take care of those infernal brits which have quick easy access to so much armoury even the heavier tanks come quite fast and OST have nothing to stand up against them.

Brits come up with tanks quite late somehow and they are more specialized to defensive operations though IMO XD
With the newer patch OH is also hard to play as defensive due to hard vet and healing issue where Wehr and PE have :> And the slow manuver of OH means that to utilize with the infantry AT ability is better (such as Landser with AT gun).

are we playing the same game?

I don't play the brits as my mate insists on using them but access to the tetriach and one tank, is it the cromwell? (equiv) to panzer always seems to come before i have anything but landsers and the single squad armed with at guns can't touch even the basic tanks
Healing is the same as Wehr, return to base, so i dont get the issue there.. isn't it only soviets that have healing truck, tho that is big advantage locating it anywhere with retreat to function. that what OSt want

maddogb wrote:
are we playing the same game?

I don't play the brits as my mate insists on using them but access to the tetriach and one tank, is it the cromwell? (equiv) to panzer always seems to come before i have anything but landsers and the single squad armed with at guns can't touch even the basic tanks
Healing is the same as Wehr, return to base, so i dont get the issue there.. isn't it only soviets that have healing truck, tho that is big advantage locating it anywhere with retreat to function. that what OSt want

Yes, that's not really what Landser Panzerbüchsen are for. They're mainly useful to prevent flanks on pak 40 and Marder II and to be used in halftracks to hunt down t70/t90/SU 76.

Miles wrote:
Halftrack comes in T3 which is a bit late compared to most others come from T2. Kugelblitz is in support mode right and Marder II has the long range and accuracy (and speed) which can make it as a semi aggresive unit, which Pak40 (no speed) lacks of.

Need mods to tell as they identified OH as offensive compared to Wehr, like PE (which means Wehr is more into defensive).

Yes, Ostheer is more offensive compared to Wehrmacht overall, but still you can Play them defensively with a t2 start. The halftrack may come in t3, but the fuel cost and time to get it is almost the same as for Wehrmacht halftracks. (60fuel and buildtime of t3 is a bit less than Wehrmacht's t2 tech + kriegbarracks buildtime). So, that's not really an Argument to say that the halftrack "Comes late".

Haha, I think it is on the same game :> As it is true like darcreaver said that it is good at early tanks when Panzerbüchsen are used, but I see the function is similar to PTRS where they are quite good when they are in a group of 3 to against Cromwell/ Sherman as they don't have heavy anti infantry tanks like StuH. Basically if play with infantry squad one squad cannot take down a tank, even a fully equipped Panzershreck due to accuracy and tank damage to infantry. (Teatrch is pretty weak against infantry so I think it is Cromwell).

Generally, a offensive player will opt out the time to go back and heal, right? This makes Wehr has the upper hand as Wehr can use muni to heal outside the base, instead like OH to go back and heal again (which is providing disadvantage for scout and sniper units). If the Sector Heal is back it will be great, or at least have the similar function like PE or Soviets healing truck XD

I will also have a try on comparing the fuel needs for halftracks if I have the chance. I think if the healing/ reinforcing ability outside the camp it might make defensive play harder (even with Army Fortress) since 2 command points for defensive buildings and retreat and go back might let the particular sector that you are defending occupied (if there is no halftrack/ buildings). I am not sure how to play as offensive as I am more into defensive + artillery types :>

Hendrik wrote:
Yes, that's not really what Landser Panzerbüchsen are for. They're mainly useful to prevent flanks on pak 40 and Marder II and to be used in halftracks to hunt down t70/t90/SU 76.

i know that's not what they are for, its just that by the time my mate has light armoury on the field landsers are all i have, with neither of us sacrificing anything else

i shall try and get a demo for u guys next time he kicks my ass :D

maddogb wrote:

Hendrik wrote:
Yes, that's not really what Landser Panzerbüchsen are for. They're mainly useful to prevent flanks on pak 40 and Marder II and to be used in halftracks to hunt down t70/t90/SU 76.

i know that's not what they are for, its just that by the time my mate has light armoury on the field landsers are all i have, with neither of us sacrificing anything else

i shall try and get a demo for u guys next time he kicks my ass :D

You can also try placing riegelmines at key positions on the map, they deal pretty high damage to vehicles and give you more time to react. Also, just in case you need AT : get landsers + Panzerfusiliers. HHL + panzerbüchse work well together.

Good luck ;)

Miles wrote:
Haha, I think it is on the same game :> As it is true like darcreaver said that it is good at early tanks when Panzerbüchsen are used, but I see the function is similar to PTRS where they are quite good when they are in a group of 3 to against Cromwell/ Sherman as they don't have heavy anti infantry tanks like StuH. Basically if play with infantry squad one squad cannot take down a tank, even a fully equipped Panzershreck due to accuracy and tank damage to infantry. (Teatrch is pretty weak against infantry so I think it is Cromwell).

never try using multiple squads of men against the brit tanks, have you seen those bucket bombs eat thru troops lol

Miles wrote:
Haha, I think it is on the same game :> As it is true like darcreaver said that it is good at early tanks when Panzerbüchsen are used, but I see the function is similar to PTRS where they are quite good when they are in a group of 3 to against Cromwell/ Sherman as they don't have heavy anti infantry tanks like StuH. Basically if play with infantry squad one squad cannot take down a tank, even a fully equipped Panzershreck due to accuracy and tank damage to infantry. (Teatrch is pretty weak against infantry so I think it is Cromwell).

There's the Sherman Crocodile/105 for the US and, in a pinch, all the Churchills for the brits, specially AVRE

If Brits taking the Churchill path indeed it is quite devastating against infantry since both AVRE and Crocodile are very tough against AT infantry. US 105 has less frequency to pop up since they have halftrack that are pretty strong against infantry units too, and I would prefer M4 + halftrack to fight against infantry + tanks :>

Now even T90 also have the ROKS effect, so it is hard to see which are taking the upper hand now.

Miles wrote:
If Brits taking the Churchill path indeed it is quite devastating against infantry since both AVRE and Crocodile are very tough against AT infantry. US 105 has less frequency to pop up since they have halftrack that are pretty strong against infantry units too, and I would prefer M4 + halftrack to fight against infantry + tanks :>

Now even T90 also have the ROKS effect, so it is hard to see which are taking the upper hand now.

umm it ain't the OST that's for sure lol

Maybe when the vet and other issues fixed OH will become the slightly prominent faction too. :>

aside from the nerfing of the landsers and the brandenburgers, some units buff the faction such as the new rifle grenade unit, the skirmish commander, and the extremely powerful jager squad.

rifle grenade? you mean the bombadiers? haven't found a use for them playing only against AI so far, i tend to go fortress as having the panzernests saves you running round like a headless chicken.

Bombardiers work well in halftracks, buildings, foxholes and cover in General. They're also good against troops in buildings.

They are also very effective when grouped with 3 or 4, especially against the soviet faction. Their main troops conscripts and some inginery are very vulnerable to the rifle grenades due to their extremely low health per man, making the grenade very deadly. Imagine all 7 conscripts blobbed behind one small wall, they'd be dead if the rifle greenade hit dead on.

132 wrote:
aside from the nerfing of the landsers and the brandenburgers, some units buff the faction such as the new rifle grenade unit, the skirmish commander, and the extremely powerful jager squad.

Yes, a lot of power was shifted from Landsers to other units, making them less op and giving more options to the Ostheer player. It now requires more tactical choices to play sucessful compared to before.

132 wrote:
They are also very effective when grouped with 3 or 4, especially against the soviet faction. Their main troops conscripts and some inginery are very vulnerable to the rifle grenades due to their extremely low health per man, making the grenade very deadly. Imagine all 7 conscripts blobbed behind one small wall, they'd be dead if the rifle greenade hit dead on.

Exactly. However, it requires some experience to use them - therefor they're pretty efficient if used correctly.

the sturmpioneers with the upgrade seems lacking for 75 munitions. I know it helps increase defense but g41s are still low in terms of dps compaerd to other uprade ssuch as the mkb42 from the jagers.

132 wrote:
the sturmpioneers with the upgrade seems lacking for 75 munitions. I know it helps increase defense but g41s are still low in terms of dps compaerd to other uprade ssuch as the mkb42 from the jagers.

Yes, I've also noticed that and have to agree - most likely the cost will be lowered to 50 ammo instead for the next patch.

keep them at 75 munitions, just give them better rifles like g43's with the same DPS as panzergrenadiers, except 3 G43 instead of 2. That would make for a better squad.

132 wrote:
keep them at 75 munitions, just give them better rifles like g43's with the same DPS as panzergrenadiers, except 3 G43 instead of 2. That would make for a better squad.

g41 are just as good as g43, but they're different. There are some bugs with the upgrade atm, too. So after the fixes they'll be more useful.