Soviet vs Ost Ai

Currently it seems as if playing against the Soviets as Ostheer is extremely difficult while vice versa is too easy. I'm not sure whether it is the AI or the faction balance (though I notice Ostheer tend to do nothing early game but cap with sturmpios). Just for the laughs, I can play against expert Ostheer as soviets and spam+blob 15 squads of strelky w/ smgs over the course of the game and easily use pak 40 as AT. Playing against soviets as Ostheer is rather a challenge. Your thoughts?

I agree, i've also noticedd that british AI doesn't do much either

I also noticed that I haven't added you guys in Steam yet.

Nothing is more fun than charging 100 men Red Banner Strelky with PPSH41s into an Ostheer base, and seeing all of his Panzerjagers or Panzerfusiliers get shredded while the 30 of your own men die in the charge all while listening to the Red Army theme from CoD WaW.

Last edited April 20, 2014 at 11:08 PM by 132

Steam is: BffWtithDEATH (WT)™

The AI is still being worked on, especially the ostheer AI. Also, british AI is notoriously hard to work with because of how the faction is designed, but ill see what I can do.

The British Faction doesnt take Part in Balance Discussions i think, so we do not work with British....

Well, this is not a balance discussion, it is an AI discussion :). So there is nothing wrong with it.

Personally i believe the British AI need's some work, i find it doesn't take part in most player's decisions for skirmish etc simply because it doesn't do very much but player's use the british extensively

I think the main problem lies with how most of the time the Ostheer AI ends up doing nothing but capping with its 2 pios then 5 min later builds the base buildings where you see landsers at 7-8 min mark

Although that may be the intention, I have yet to see a game open for PVP in the lobby. For this reason, AI is becoming more and more important. I'm sure a little tweak to the the computers won't hurt the balance of the game am I right?

132 wrote:
Although that may be the intention, I have yet to see a game open for PVP in the lobby. For this reason, AI is becoming more and more important. I'm sure a little tweak to the the computers won't hurt the balance of the game am I right?

PVP is still an important aspect of the game and the main priority

However, the AI is also a priority and you can expect improvements in the next patch, especially for the ostheer

The Ostheer AI does prove to be challenging once they get their vehicles all massed up together, until IS2s hit the field they become fairly vulnerable as infantry masses are  able to combat the masses of panzerjager spams and pak40s.

132 wrote:
The Ostheer AI does prove to be challenging once they get their vehicles all massed up together, until IS2s hit the field they become fairly vulnerable as infantry masses are able to combat the masses of panzerjager spams and pak40s.

thanks for the input, observations like these really help with me adjusting the AI, as I dont have the time to play the game all day every day watching the AI :P

Speaking of AI, I've got a few observations about the Soviet AI. While generally it is fine and can put up a challenge (mostly by making human wave attacks using insane blobs of Cons+Engineers+Strelky and sometimes launching nice-looking armoured attacks of 3-4 T-34s at once, mixed with various light tanks/assault guns), I've noticed a couple of strange patterns.
1)I've never seen AI equip Strelky with PPSh or DP, it always seem to go with the PTRS. Maybe he's just reacting to me building tanks and vehicles, I dunno. Never seen Guards, Sturmovie or Ford GPA neither.
2)Is the AI using the Observer team as intended? I understand there's no way of forcing the computer to use it as a player would (in cover behind enemy lines holding fire), and it seems to think of it as a long range marksman team, but a couple of times I've seen the AI mass 3 observer teams, sneak them to my base while I'm busy elsewhere, and get them to engage my base buildings from outside the base, dealing no damage and possibly getting his units killed by my base defences.
3)I don't know whether it's an AI stuff or a physics/game mechanics issue, but sometimes AI Conscripts burn themselves with their own Molotovs. E.g., when there are a Landser squad and a Cons squad both in green cover firing at each other from across the street, sometimes the Conscrpits would throw their Molotov, it would hit the sandbags they are behind, pouring burning petrol all over their own position, burning 3-4 men of the squad before the computer (if we're lucky) pulls the squad out.

Last edited May 16, 2014 at 5:52 PM by Grand Duke

Grand wrote:
Speaking of AI, I've got a few observations about the Soviet AI. While generally it is fine and can put up a challenge (mostly by making human wave attacks using insane blobs of Cons+Engineers+Strelky and sometimes launching nice-looking armoured attacks of 3-4 T-34s at once, mixed with various light tanks/assault guns), I've noticed a couple of strange patterns.
1)I've never seen AI equip Strelky with PPSh or DP, it always seem to go with the PTRS. Maybe he's just reacting to me building tanks and vehicles, I dunno. Never seen Guards, Surmovie or Ford GPA neither.
2)Is the AI using the Observer team as intended? I understand there's no way of forcing the computer to use it as a player would (in cover behind enemy lines holding fire), and it seems to think of it as a long range marksman team, but a couple of times I've seen the AI mass 3 observer teams, sneak them to my base while I'm busy elsewhere, and get them to engage my base buildings from outside the base, dealing no damage and possibly getting his units killed by my base defences.
3)I don't know whether it's an AI stuff or a physics/game mechanics issue, but sometimes AI Conscripts burn themselves with their own Molotovs. E.g., when there are a Landser squad and a Cons squad both in green cover firing at each other for across the street, sometime the Conscrpits would throw their Molotov, it would hit the sandbags they are behind, pouring burning petrol all over their own position, burning 3-4 men of the squad before the computer (if we're lucky) pulls the squad out.

1. I can probably reduce the priority then of PTRS, so that they are more likely to upgrade a mixture of both

2. I probably will just disable the observer team for the AI for now until I can get them to work

3. Thats very odd, and shouldnt happen at all with molotovs. that is definitely a bug right there, as molotovs should only explode on impact.


Thanks for the observations

A little off-topic, but since we're on the topic of AI I randomly play a match against the PE to test something and I noticed that it simply massed Scout Cars rather than using Panzer Grenadiers. I think the early game PE AI could use a little attention too, if possible.

Magyar wrote:
A little off-topic, but since we're on the topic of AI I randomly play a match against the PE to test something and I noticed that it simply massed Scout Cars rather than using Panzer Grenadiers. I think the early game PE AI could use a little attention too, if possible.

Sure thing. I can give them a few more different starting builds to try

I would like to comment about the AI as well. I have seen the Russians build the ford gpa and guards, though infrequently . This could be because of all the previous requirements to build the guards , or because when I play they tend to go almost always with the commander tree that provides naval troops. The Naval troops I have seen equip both the DP and the antitank rifle. I don't recall the strelky with the pps or dp like the op said . Nor have I seen upgraded engineers. I have seen the Observer team behave in the same manner, basically running around the map occasionally harassing pioneers which they are very good at, and then wondering into the base and getting shot up by-based defenses before retreating.

As far as panzer elite behavior, I have seen almost all scout cars like the Op said as well. It is very uncommon  for them to build general infantry troops until much later in a match if at all, unless it has chosen Luftwaffe . I've also noticed in some games them building multiple munitions trucks and leaving them at their base. I'm talking two, three or more sometimes. I also noticed that the Panzer elite kerk,  once it's get shot it will just sit there and let the other unit destroy it instead of fleeing. As far as command tree choice, the PE is much more varied compared to the Russians.

How does the AI choose which command tree is going to use? Is it random or based on some activities, resources, etc, happening in game?

Overall great job and thanks for continuing to tweak it .

Sigmar wrote:
I would like to comment about the AI as well. I have seen the Russians build the ford gpa and guards, though infrequently . This could be because of all the previous requirements to build the guards , or because when I play they tend to go almost always with the commander tree that provides naval troops. The Naval troops I have seen equip both the DP and the antitank rifle. I don't recall the strelky with the pps or dp like the op said . Nor have I seen upgraded engineers. I have seen the Observer team behave in the same manner, basically running around the map occasionally harassing pioneers which they are very good at, and then wondering into the base and getting shot up by-based defenses before retreating.

As far as panzer elite behavior, I have seen almost all scout cars like the Op said as well. It is very uncommon for them to build general infantry troops until much later in a match if at all, unless it has chosen Luftwaffe . I've also noticed in some games them building multiple munitions trucks and leaving them at their base. I'm talking two, three or more sometimes. I also noticed that the Panzer elite kerk, once it's get shot it will just sit there and let the other unit destroy it instead of fleeing. As far as command tree choice, the PE is much more varied compared to the Russians.

How does the AI choose which command tree is going to use? Is it random or based on some activities, resources, etc, happening in game?

Overall great job and thanks for continuing to tweak it .

The AI basically chooses command tree at random, though sometimes it will choose a starting build-order which goes well with a certain command tree, and I chooses that instead

Next patch the AI will be a bit smarter depending on difficulty, and will not rely so much on manpower and munitions bonuses

Jeff wrote:
Next patch the AI will be a bit smarter depending on difficulty, and will not rely so much on manpower and munitions bonuses

Sorry for Necropost, but does it mean the AI will be less cheating?
I don´t have a real problem that the AI gets resource bonuses (as already in vCoH), but what really bugs me, and others i co-op with, the (?almost?) non existend Fog of War for the AI. The AI shoots at out our units over maximum shooting distance without use of hidden snipers or observer teams. Depending on the map, it happened many times that our forces got wiped out before we could get close to them. Or he´s shooting at fortifications/units, a normal player couldn´t have seen yet.

Tl;dr The AI knows and sees everything without scouting or recon.

Last edited March 18, 2015 at 5:08 PM by Ibram Gaunt

So true. I am agree with it. I played two games on the same map for Ost vs Soviet and i lost both of them. THEY PASSED THROUGH 4 MG'S AND ONE MORTAR WITH ONLY INFANTRY! And it was only medium difficulty bot! He pressed me near base and i was without resources. Bot is too stupid to build tanks and there was a small chance to do something. So i bought rocket arty. Twice. And twice it was destroyed before reached the base. Because we have very "cool" thing named "appearance from the border of a map" So annoying. And there what I think: mg-34 is too weak, heavy mg-34 bunkers is too bad, soviets OP because they have too much different and isn't so expensive infantry and too much different tanks (need anti-infantry? pick t-90 or t-70; need smth medium? yep, we have two not bad variants; need AT or AT+anti-inf.? we have 3 su's, one isu, is-2 and more; ~1/3 of tanks can be upgraded!; ost have good tanks too but you need very long research it and i never received them because Soviet infantry), AT rifles is too good (AND IT IS PENETRATING STUG'S FRONT ARMOR! HOW??? if it is penetrating tiger's front armor i am gonna kill myself), two katyushas for 650 or 550 man power is too cheap, soviet scout cars is too strong. I am not an expert so i can be wrong but Soviet still crushing Ost.
P.S Sorry for my English if it incorrect somewhere or everywhere.

Last edited April 13, 2015 at 7:48 PM by nikitkagood

If needed I can decrease the difficulty of easy and standard AI if that helps.

Hi 'Robotnik',

Would it be at all possible to add more difficulty options for the artificial intelligence, to better suit players of varying skill levels? I, personally, would like to see an 'easiest' level which doesn't let the A.I. win at all (doesn't capture victory points or assault the base), for the purposes of map testing.

Cheers, CoHtaku.

HI cohtaku.

it s probable dev time is precious. Can I suggest instead, if it s for map testing, to build your own map and allow you formidable advantage and/or nerf to your foe ?

That could be high ressource points for you, poor for it. Lot of raw and weapons in front of your hq, too cramped command territory for rnnemy in order it cant build a full base ect ... variations are are numerous.

If you re unfamiliar with worldbuilder mp me, I can probably produce such map in short time.

CoHtaku wrote:
Hi 'Robotnik',

Would it be at all possible to add more difficulty options for the artificial intelligence, to better suit players of varying skill levels? I, personally, would like to see an 'easiest' level which doesn't let the A.I. win at all (doesn't capture victory points or assault the base), for the purposes of map testing.

Cheers, CoHtaku.

Unfortunately not, Relic has it hardcoded so that there is only the 4 difficulty settings

Hi syntax_error,

I mean in order to test my own maps, to make sure such things as terrain deformation, building construction and unit pathfinding as well as the territory/resource layout are functioning correctly. When testing for these things i am of course not playing 'properly', and as such can be beaten by even an easy A.I. if i'm not careful (especially in Eastern Front, which seems to gain some perverse pleasure from dancing on the players grave). As such it would be useful to have an A.I. level which techs up and fights, but does not actually win.

However this is unfortunately impossible as Dr. Eggman has mentioned above, but such is life.

Thank you for offering to make a map for me, though. That's most kind of you but it's not needed.

Cheers, CoHtaku.

Hi

My bad here, I think I could even have been seen as offending that was not the goal. I understood maptesting in a larger consideration, including testing units value one vs an other, weapon efficiency vs particular target ect ...

Now it s clear for me your a mapmaker that want to test it s own map, I can only suggest from the original post to make copy of the original map and add in the command territory you will play instant generic fuel ammo Lucky strike ect in order to boost your dev, at AI expand.

The only other solution closest to your original wish is to use an alternative dataattrib, with different value for AI. however requirement would be to use an other installation, such as an older CD one to make your test. More fastidious is to have the two files Inside the same game Under different name. You will have to rename both each time you want to test and revert opreration for regular game.

Fret not, my friend. Nary a word in your post could be construed as offensive. :)

However i am not too skilled with these newfangled contraptions known as computers, so it's not so easy for me to modify the game, but thank you for the suggestion.

Cheers, CoHtaku.

Last edited May 5, 2015 at 9:36 PM by CoHtaku

Try that. AI easy would be rather pathetic.

I will presume you re playing a steam version on a modern computer running a Windows 64 bits.

classical installation path is C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Company of Heroes Relaunch

Check for a specific file : tuning.rgd.  usual path  C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Company of Heroes Relaunch\Eastern_Front\DataAttrib\attrib\tuning

Change its name in (for example) tuning.bak instead of tuning.rgd. unpack the tuning.rar and place the new tuning.rgd in thesame directory with the tuning.bak.

You ve now your new (very) easy AI.

Point you will be no more able to play multi.

Once your tests are over, rename the modified tuning.rgd in tuning.cheat (for exemple) and revert tuning.bak into tuning.rgd.
Your now with original Eastern front game.

if you need to test once more, just restart the process. tuning.rdg in tuning.bak, then tuning.cheat in tuning.rgd.

Let me now if it dont work or dont fulfil your goal

Last edited May 5, 2015 at 11:32 AM by syntax_error

(though I notice Ostheer tend to do nothing early game but cap with sturmpios). Just for the laughs, I can play against expert Ostheer as soviets and spam+blob 15 squads of strelky w/ smgs over the course of the game and easily use pak 40 as AT. Playing against soviets as Ostheer is rather a challenge. Your thoughts?

ostheer AI is a bit trickier to make harder because of the pool switching system, so it can be difficult to make them harder. Ive tried to make them rush panzer III's once in a while, but it doesnt seem to work all the time