My take on simplifying the OH and increasing play fluidity.

Hi all,

My ideas will mostly deal with unit tier-distribution and not balance. Unit and tier-building costs will likely have to be adjusted after some of these changes. I need to state, however, that nerfing Landsers slightly (by removing their G41 upgrade) should be allocated highest priority.

Firstly, the current OH problem is that there are simply too many upgrades and switching around to be done, which hampers decision making fluidity. This hampering occuring not in the "planning department", but by plain confusion-making. OH has more "switches" and tier-rules then any other faction. Confusion=bad.

Secondly, since the faction is young, many of units are useless and shit. Not only are the Panzerjagers weak against armor, but they are also cheap and thus cannot lay claim to needing a buff. A cheap, shit unit that comes at 50 fuel into the game is not fun and confusing. Same goes for the LMG team, weak and useless, plus serves the sole purpose of further increasing buildable inf. squad number, hence confusion.

Thirdly, Panzerfusiliers are currently useless as they come at 85 fuel into the game and simply don't cut it. I understand that with the necessary Landser nerf the Panzerfusiliers will gain in importance, but they'll still be coming too late into the game AND they again increase the number of inf. squads varieties which again is a major cause for confusion.

My solution (and I am not a noob or a compstomper, so heed my call):

1) drop Panzerjagers AND Light MG-34 team. Move Panzerfusiliers into Assault T2 slot. Give Panzerfusiliers double AT upgrade at 75+75 muni (like Grens only shittier weapon) OR a single LMG-34 upgrade (cancells out the AT weapon upgrade possibility).

2) drop the T2 optional 30 fuel upgrade - no one in their right mind will spend extra 30 fuel at 50 fuel T2 for a crappy halftrack (that you have to spend muni to upgrade) or an equally shitty leIG18. If these changes will appear to unbalance the T2 in any way, tune the unit costs (especially in case of leIG18, which can potentially be very powerful, but needs to be just a tad better than the wehr mortar with a corresponding increase in cost). That's it for T2.

3) T3 without the Panzerfusiliers should now provide solely armor. Drop the first 40 fuel upgrade unlocking the P2 or the Marder2, increase T3 building cost to balance for it (just remember that Landsers are also weaker now). Same as with the PE only 1 unlocking upgrade per tier (and only for OH T3/4). Have to keep it simpler.

Since I propose dropping the T2 internal 30 fuel upgrade, you may as well increase the building cost from 25 to 35 fuel. Same goes for the T3 building, the cost can be increased to 45 fuel. The rest of the spared fuel might be "compensated" by nerfing Landsers.

I have to repeat again that these changes deal not with the balance issues (which I believe are not severe), but rather with the confusing nature of the OH teching tree. The balance will have to be tweaked with tier fuel costs and, possibly, unit costs and effectiveness. I above all implore you not to get rid of the Assault/Support pool switching as it's a major cool feature of the faction, you may as well use it for further overall nerfing (by increasing the switching time/cost) of the OH if such need arises.

From what I see here, all I can say is that it WILL actually affect balance as you can get out PF's before Strelky just as an example. Also, it seems that you are getting it closer to Whermacht with the PF's being like Grens(another example). EF-team deems everything that is along those lines as invalid. Also, Tom and I also tried it this way, but they want to see replays. So upload replays and then they will consider your mentioned stuff :)

Yes, I was saying it would most likely affect the balance even with the initial proposed changes (Landser nerf, T2 35fuel, T3 45fuel). It'll have to be worked out by the player base and fixed with the building and unit pricing. It is moving somewhat closer to wehrmacht, but there is pool switching and a different veterancy system, so it'll never quite be wehrmacht. After all we all know what relic's most radical departure from the formula had turned out to be, so it never hurts being a little conservative.

What replays are you talking about? This is not a balance rant.

UPDATE

All of my above observations and propositions concern the OH vs US match-up, since:

1) US is the core faction and cannot possibly be considered OP or unbalanced by any at least somewhat decent player. Therefore I have chosen to measure the balance against an established element of the core game.

2) There isn't much stuff you can do with the US creativity-wise and teching is very straightforward.

—

I have doubts about Landsers needing a nerf after a game I've just played. Need more testing with US vs OH.

Steam name: TipsyExcess

Last edited November 27, 2013 at 5:40 PM by anakond

I completely agree with OP's suggestions. Light Machine Gun team is a joke and Panzerfuliers are comparative to Wehrmacht Grenadiers, which are a T2 tech.

The only potential problem I can see with this change is that Panzerfuliers may overshadow Landsers after the first 5-10 minutes of the game. However, if you're going to keep Panzerfuliers as a T3 tech you need to buff the living hell out of them.

Wingflier wrote:
I completely agree with OP's suggestions. Light Machine Gun team is a joke and Panzerfuliers are comparative to Wehrmacht Grenadiers, which are a T2 tech.

How much fuel does Wehr t2 require? 35+25. in total 60 fuel.
How much fuel does Ostheer t2 require? 25+35. in total: 60, just like Wehr t2.

Sooo they're both a t2 unit which serve a similar role, and they arrive precisely at the same fuel cost into the game. From timings/mp cost Ostheer is a bit better/cheaper, actually.

It doesn't matter if a unit is in t3 or t4, technically it's still a 60 fuel tech unit and performs like that.

QuoteThe only potential problem I can see with this change is that Panzerfuliers may overshadow Landsers after the first 5-10 minutes of the game. However, if you're going to keep Panzerfuliers as a T3 tech you need to buff the living hell out of them.

Landsers in their current for are broken anyways. We're working on an internal solution for this matter. We'll release more infos on this matter in the near future.

About the LMG team: we know the unit currently isn't worth its cost and is overshadowed by the hmg34. We're going to fix this also.

Last edited December 3, 2013 at 5:15 PM by dArCReAvEr

QuoteHow much fuel does Wehr t2 require? 35+25. in total 60 fuel.
How much fuel does Ostheer t2 require? 25+35. in total: 60, just like Wehr t2.

Sooo they're both a t2 unit which serve a similar role, and they arrive precisely at the same fuel cost into the game. From timings/mp cost Ostheer is a bit better/cheaper, actually.

It doesn't matter if a unit is in t3 or t4, technically it's still a 60 fuel tech unit and performs like that.

I feel like we may be on a different page here.

In that post that you replied to, I was comparing the OH Panzerfusilier to the WM Grenadier. I did this because, quite frankly, they are very similar in costs/stats.

However, the Grenadier is a T2 tech which you can get significantly earlier than the Panzerfusilier.

Why do I say this?

The Wehrmacht T2 is reached by Escalating to Skirmish Phase and building a Krieg Barracks. All of that costs 60 fuel. However, the Commander will also build a Wehrmacht Quarters before that, so the total before you can finally get a Krieg Barracks up is 75 fuel. However, and this is important, you can get the Krieg barracks much faster than the OH Commander can get the Schutzen War Camp. Why? Because in order to get there, the OH Commander has to build 3 buildings. This time is spent occupying a squad or more of Engineers, which are much more battle-hardy for the OH than they are for the WM, I might add, who must stay in base until all 3 buildings are completed.

The Wehrmacht player can, after the Quarters are created at the beginning of the game, keep his Engineers out in the field building structures, minefields, MG Emplacements etc. until the completely autonomous Skirmish Phase is reached, and only then do they need to return to build the Krieg Barracks.

So yes, it's a question of time and resources. Not only that, but the OH player has to spend 10 more fuel (85 instead of 75) to be able to build Panzerfusiliers. IN ADDITION, I think someone could make a very strong argument that the "Support Modernization" upgrade generally needs to be researched before T3 is considered because of the important halftrack and indirect fire support which is so crucial at that part of the game. The additional Panzershreck for the Panzerjagers is nothing to scoff at either. Skipping those crucial benefits for a slightly better infantry squad (unless you want to spend ANOTHER 40 fuel) seems like strategical suicide. So if you add the extra 30 fuel on top of the current T3 costs and at 115 fuel to realistically reach the Panzerfulisier phase, there is really no comparison between the two.

Last edited December 4, 2013 at 6:44 AM by Wingflier

well, all u need are landsers anyways in the current Version. we're planning to improve the inner facfion balance With the Nest patch, so overall teching will be better distributed and more fluent.

dArCReAvEr wrote:
well, all u need are landsers anyways in the current Version. we're planning to improve the inner facfion balance With the Nest patch, so overall teching will be better distributed and more fluent.

With the extremely well-balanced and polished nature of the older Russian faction, I'm sure it will turn out well.

Any idea on when that patch is due out? I'm excited to play it.

We are still testing, changing and adding stuff to see how it works in game.

IF someone really wish to see our progress - watch this http://www.twitch.tv/easternfrontmod/b/484000139 . Some test games with medium to low skill play from my side I guess but still if you watch carefully you will see most of the changes we are working on.

Dreamerbg wrote:
We are still testing, changing and adding stuff to see how it works in game.

IF someone really wish to see our progress - watch this http://www.twitch.tv/easternfrontmod/b/484000139 . Some test games with medium to low skill play from my side I guess but still if you watch carefully you will see most of the changes we are working on.

I watched the replay (all 3 hours of it), I was very impressed!

The changes were fantastic. It seems you split the "T1 option" into 2 different buildings: One which houses the Landsers, Snipers, and Mortar squads and the other which houses some kind of "Officer squad", light recon vehicle, etc. (was hard to tell because it wasn't you using it). In addition, the MK42 upgrade for the Landsers seems harder to obtain somehow. Perhaps you have to upgrade it manually if you researched it after the unit was built, I can't tell.

In this regard they are similar to the Panzer Elite. You choose a starting T1 building which kind of determines the outcome of the rest of the game.

The T2.5 building now seems a lot more reasonable as well. With the Panzerfulisiers, AT Guns, Tanks, and APC all being in the same place, this is a lot more practical than it was before.

Now there is an actual choice of upgrading your Landsers heavily and skipping the Panzerfulisiers, or skipping the Landsers, using Stormpioners in conjunction with the Officers and focusing more on the Panzerfulisiers as your main infantry unit later.

Anyway, I'm very impressed. One thing I didn't understand is why there were 2 different "mortar units" in the same T1 building, but I'm assuming that's just something you're working on.

Keep up the good work.

Also, you better check this thread if you're planning to change the sniper passive cloack mechanic which i don't agree with.  Not being able to cloack your sniper unless there's a bush nearby takes away the best defence that sniper has, its camouflage.

The main ideea is to add a negative zeal to prevent sniper spam, also longer recloack time.
http://www.coh2.org/topic/10886/elite-mod-coh--download-and-changelog/page/18

Tom wrote:
Also, you better check this thread if you're planning to change the sniper passive cloack mechanic which i don't agree with.  Not being able to cloack your sniper unless there's a bush nearby takes away the best defence that sniper has, its camouflage.

The main ideea is to add a negative zeal to prevent sniper spam, also longer recloack time.
http://www.coh2.org/topic/10886/elite-mod-coh--download-and-changelog/page/18

Agreed. Crippling the unit's abilities and it's mechanics is not the solution to deal with Sniper spam. It must be fixed not disabled like this. So suggested solutions ( neg zeal, recharge times ) seem most viable. Sniper is a key unit and force the opponent to create a counter solution, jams the teching wheel. It's necessary and has to be used properly in the game. Current one extremely micro intensive and ineffective. I expect it to be fixed.

neg zeal? HF fighting vs strafing runs or tank guns.

dArCReAvEr wrote:
neg zeal? HF fighting vs strafing runs or tank guns.

just a quote from the forum:

Q: Snipers now have a negative zeal radius of 20 (same as pioneer antispam) where recived accuracy modified by 1.5x for each additional sniper"
That means that if i have 2 snipers they will get insta raped by strafe?


A: No, but it does mean that 2 snipers together will have a 112.5% chance of being countersniped while moving, and an 84% chance of hitting either of those 2 snipers on retreat, compared to 75% and 56% in vanilla respectively.

Well that's cool, at least there's a downside of blobbing/spamming and has a punishment somehow and this looks ok for me. It has to be tested this way instead of making the sniper completely useless. Except noob and troll games no body spams snipers, watch high level games you see 1 from each, max. 2. 2v2s have the most spamming rate but anyway with neg zeal, this will be also punished. Look Roo spam, They changed the cost and speed, now no one using it.

Tom wrote:

dArCReAvEr wrote:
neg zeal? HF fighting vs strafing runs or tank guns.

just a quote from the forum:

Q: Snipers now have a negative zeal radius of 20 (same as pioneer antispam) where recived accuracy modified by 1.5x for each additional sniper"
That means that if i have 2 snipers they will get insta raped by strafe?


A: No, but it does mean that 2 snipers together will have a 112.5% chance of being countersniped while moving, and an 84% chance of hitting either of those 2 snipers on retreat, compared to 75% and 56% in vanilla respectively.

This fact is ridiculous. Having to rely on a 25% luck chance to countersnipe is a joke anyways. Why not simply go the easy fix route and raise the moving-accuracy bonus against sniper armour to 100%. 100% countersnipe chance, gg. Easy 2 second fix. No need to rely on additional random modifiers etc.

Still doesn't change the fact that you can't counter snipers without bringing snipers of your own and snipers still follow the 1shot-1kill philosophy which is retarded by itself.

Anyways. Received accuracy means higher chance to be killed on the move, by tank shells, by arty shells and also by strafes. Imo the received accuracy zeal doesn't change anything except for making allied snipers even more OP than before. Axis can't blob because sudden-strafe and allied are free to still spam snipers.

Roos were made useless by nerfing them to oblivion. But that's good for the game, since they're broken because they gave you a strong infantry force and all of a sudden you could kill tigers with a button-piat kangaroo for 300mp and 20f.

If it's so easy to fix why don't you fix then? Why EF has crippled sniper units?

Riggsman wrote:
If it's so easy to fix why don't you fix then? Why EF has crippled sniper units?

Because we don't change vanilla balance.

So current Ost or SU sniper is on par with Wher or USA sniper? One can cloack other needs Vet2. That's balanced?

Let's see... Soviet snipers are paired with gaz43, which can detect snipers, deal more damage than normal jeeps by default and you can call in conscripts as meat shields.
Ostheer Snipers can be covered with landsers, and their kubelwagen also is superior to schwimmms/bikes.

They still can achieve their perma cloak when becoming vet 2, which is fairly fast overall as both ostheer and soveits require ~25% less experience than USA units to level up. They still can be moved around while cloaked without decloaking, so you can still countersnipe if necessary.

So, where's the problem? Why should we make Ostheer/soveit snipers just as abuseable as vCoH snipers? Just because Wehr/US sniper mechanics are broken we also need to break them to compete with US/wehr snipers?

Ah yea, good idea. And while we're at it we should also fit a button ability for soviets and a treadbreak ability for Ostheer vehicles so they can compete with the OF factions, too. ::)

Last edited December 5, 2013 at 6:07 PM by dArCReAvEr

I wonder if there was no COH2 for inspiration how would the OH/SU sniper look like?

Tom wrote:
I wonder if there was no COH2 for inspiration how would the OH/SU sniper look like?

EF didsn't even remotely took insipration from CoH 2 sniper mechanics. CoH 2 mechanics with the clown car/soviet dual sniper team is even more retarded than vcoh... >:(

Last edited December 5, 2013 at 6:22 PM by dArCReAvEr

It was inspired by other great mod, Modern Combat, so thanks Darkbladecr, Spoon, DMz and Beefy^ for thinking about something similar first in their mod :)... lol.

First of all current Conscripts are not meatshields anymore but murder squads. Second Landsers cant defend even themselves, how sniper will be covered? Yeah they move with cloak but you can't uncloak them to move faster until vet2, plus SU sniper is more viable then OST because of current Prop doctrine which allows Cons become more overpowered, sweeping anything on the field. So sniper is not that big issue atm but Ost teching and early-mid game SU actually.

Blackbishop wrote:
It was inspired by other great mod, Modern Combat, so thanks Darkbladecr, Spoon, DMz and Beefy^ for thinking about something similar first in their mod :)... lol.

Didn't play for a year I guess, if it's changed I can be wrong but last time I checked, Chinese Sniper was owning USA sniper. USA sniper was simply useless because of cloak mechanics while Chinese one was simply Vanilla sniper.

@riggs
thats not true
you can uncloak your snipers to move faster, but you have to stay in cover to claok again

Well I just checked OSt sniper, he can't. Uncloak button is inactive, if you know any other trick tell me.

Riggsman wrote:

Blackbishop wrote:
It was inspired by other great mod, Modern Combat, so thanks Darkbladecr, Spoon, DMz and Beefy^ for thinking about something similar first in their mod :)... lol.

Didn't play for a year I guess, if it's changed I can be wrong but last time I checked, Chinese Sniper was owning USA sniper. USA sniper was simply useless because of cloak mechanics while Chinese one was simply Vanilla sniper.

Modern combat has enough other problems aside their snipers. Also, the imbalance is occuring because both factions use a different sniper design, and afaik the US sniper can't run around while cloaked without decloaking.

On SU/OH both faction utilize the same mechanics and the sniper counters actually work by themselves. Still don't see a problem with it.

But my question is not Counter sniping. Ofc you can countersnipe if you wait, halt and shoot the other but my issue is the impact of the sniper in the game. Ost sniper can't deal much damage because of powerful cons spam with quick smg upgrades, instant sprint with CS while Landsers doesnt even have automatic weapons. Sniper has to make MP damage, it's hard inf counter but now it can't. Sniper is not only abusive unit as it's defined by some but it's a type of teching and force teching unit as well. It's a stone in your shoe. Besides that fact, the current sniper cant shoot and run back uncloaked untill vet2 and Ost sniper needs more kills than SU sniper because of low xp gain from Cons. Anyway, it's still an issue in my book.

Sprint will be removed for soviets. landsers will be buffed and cons arer tweaked to only be useful while standing still in cover. all i can say on this issue is that we'll have an eye on the snipers and will tweak stuff if necessary.