Panzerjagers are Weak

As a specialized AT-Infantry unit, Panzerjagers do a poor job at doing their job. The squad dies as fast as PE tank busters vs. Tanks, and their one and only Panzerschreck is 25% less effective than its Wehr/PE counterparts. To get another one of these lower quality schrecks, they first require a building upgrade initially, and 75 munitions (pretty poor cost, considering it costs the same as a Wehr Schreck and is less effective). The squad itself costs 320 manpower, which I consider to be too expensive. The unit has probably the poorest AI ability in the game, that they are not able to defend itself from any form of infantry. At least tank busters in groups can occasionally fend off a few engines or vanilla rifles on their own.

As a infantry unit that is designed to fight tanks, they could have their own armor type that makes them more resistant to tank fire. Accuracy should be tweaked a bit to make their schrecks fire more accurately and rapidly.

As if now, Jagers w/ tankbuster equipment are much more effective and cost effective in comparison.

Last edited November 3, 2013 at 3:58 AM by 132

Working As Intended (tm), part of the pool balancing system  ::) .

(Agree with everything you said).

We never said that all datas and all units are already well balanced. We are working on the tank hunters and there are plans to buff them.
BUT our problem is that no one is playing EF in MP games. All the balance stuff is done by a small group of devs.
When u have balance problems try to play with devs OR upload replays because we can just check and analyse units with your replays!
All in all we are happy about feedback but we need datas and replays to work and balance stuff... Thanky u very much.

@132
Hmm I think personally that Jägers are a good example of a 'Glass Cannon'. But, I think that the major issue with PJ's is that they are kind of too random. That is kind of the problem with Schrecks in general with their slow rate of fire and their random accuracy. PJ are indeed fragile, just never sent them in alone and they should be safer. Sometimes they do just great and sometimes they don't so I get a Pak 40.

My two cents :)

Good point Lord Rommel.

PJagers aren't that bad, although their Shrecks don't deliver the same damage as their PE counterparts i can assure that focus fire ability makes up for the lack of damage. 
And the most important ability of them that ppl tend to forget  its the cheap teller mine. At 35 muni each it makes them quite spammable. If you're a player with a rich imagination you can make some crazy stuff with those tellers, like triggering them with nades when hordes of cons are swarming you turning them in green xp.

Giving them rifles instead of lugers won't make any difference especially when u buy the second shreck.

They shouldn't be used as the main AT force. Use them in conjunction with the pak 40, preventing flanks.  If u manage to place a couple of tellers i don't see the need of more than 1 Pjager squad. Taking in consideration that even the landsers have at nades ( bugged though, suggest to replace them with PE at nades) i think OH deals very well with vehicles in general.

I never said you should give them rifles. What I meant is with having extremely poor AI, they should make up in much stronger AT ability. Take Wehr grenadiers for example. Upgrade them with one Schreck, they are soft AT and AI. But PJs lack in the AI department so they should be better vs Armor.

The real problem i see with them now, is they are too expensive for what they could do. And the Pak 40 requires much more tech and comes out much later than the Panzerjagers. Getting a Pak 40 to fend off light vehicles is too much of a hassle (you primarily be using them later on if medium/heavy armor hits the field) and Panzerjagers are probably the one unit that comes the earliest and that you need most when light armor is on the battle field.

Last edited November 3, 2013 at 4:50 PM by 132

I build Marder II  to deal with the light tanks, also with 1 panzerjager squad to protect the marder from flanking light vehicles. I don't trust panzerjagers, the squad of 3 men give me pain. :(

132 wrote:
I never said you should give them rifles. What I meant is with having extremely poor AI, they should make up in much stronger AT ability. Take Wehr grenadiers for example. Upgrade them with one Schreck, they are soft AT and AI. But PJs lack in the AI department so they should be better vs Armor.

The real problem i see with them now, is they are too expensive for what they could do. And the Pak 40 requires much more tech and comes out much later than the Panzerjagers. Getting a Pak 40 to fend off light vehicles is too much of a hassle (you primarily be using them later on if medium/heavy armor hits the field) and Panzerjagers are probably the one unit that comes the earliest and that you need most when light armor is on the battle field.

I overestimated these guys. I was giving them credit because they had the teller mine which turned out to be just another lame mine that barely scratch a light vehicle. Worse than the wehr mine.

I suggest they receive some elite armor to make them more resilient to infantry.


They should come with elite armor making them more resilient to infantry.

Imo they're okay. Schreck damage okay, with focus firing they're decent against tanks, 2nd schreck is cheap. However they suffer more from not having a proper unit to support them earlygame (Marder, pIII, StuG are all in different tiers). And as schrecks are sort of inaccurate they're unreliable AT units. We're working on improving the t2 at weaponry in general and give more freedom on using Panzerjägers as support AT. Will take a while, though.

Also, the AT mine will receive a new model/tooltip in the next version so it's more obvious that its different from PE Tellers.

Last edited November 14, 2013 at 12:13 PM by dArCReAvEr

Not to mention that they are 6xp/model. Second most high xp after the Knights Cross Holders.

That's tied to the squad cost. The higher the cost from an individual soldier is the more XP you get for killing it. Not to be confused with EP though, which are added to the veterancy counter for the killing unit.

Have you ever thought about giving the shreck to the Panzerfusiliers ? Because atm Pjagers shrecks can't  fight KV1 which comes really fast.  It's almost like a bazooka, failing to penetrate heavy armor.
PF's seems to be stronger and you can actually engage the KV without getting to 1 man in no time and auto retreat.

Like Darci said; the PzJägers shouldnt be able to fight everything by their own. U will need heavy weapons to deal with such an heavy tank like the KV-1.
But i said it all the time... there was a closed beta were a lot of people had the chance to help and adjust the balance... no one was there and was willing
to help us. NOW - after the disaster of CoH2 - everyone is coming back and start to "advice" us in balance questions... Please; When u have balance
issues - SEND us REPLAYS of your player vs player matches because we dont need this "ideas". We need datas where we can see this problems.
Thank u very much.

First of all there's Steam where you can ask people to play. Since noone does automatch in EF, this is the only way to test PvP. Second, I personally and afaik Killar as well, asked Darc, Glimz many times for a game they didn't/don't even respond since they are too busy with Dota2 lol. If you want to be convinced that many things are broken in EF at the moment, the only way is pwn a dev in 1v1 but all of them somehow reluctant to play. So what's your other solution I wonder.

when we started the closed beta nobody was playing dota2
when we started the closed beta we dont even had the steam version of coh1

i guess this is what rommel wanted to say
we had nearly 200 beta testers and nobody uploaded (even now) replays
all we got are the the next ideas and thoughts topics

add plz unit xy or stuff like this


and we always said we need replays! and we need PvP replays!!!
we never said that we are so pro that we can do everything alone. ofc we arent. there is always a better player!

Tom wrote:
Have you ever thought about giving the shreck to the Panzerfusiliers ? Because atm Pjagers shrecks can't  fight KV1 which comes really fast.  It's almost like a bazooka, failing to penetrate heavy armor.
PF's seems to be stronger and you can actually engage the KV without getting to 1 man in no time and auto retreat.

I don't really see why this would be beneficial at all. Panzerfusiliers and Pjägers are in different tiers, and Fusiliers can use the Panzerfaust ability which serves as soft AT.

The Ostheer Schreck stats are 100% the same as Wehr/PE, only the damage is different. Wehr 120, PE 105 and Ostheer 90.
Furthermore, the KV-1s are an extremely bad example because KV tanks are designed to not be countered by panzerschrecks alone. KV armour has 15% less received penetration from schrecks and a very good basic armourtype from the start, so you actually need Marders / paks / doctrinal AT tanks / StuGs against them.

Riggsman wrote:
First of all there's Steam where you can ask people to play. Since noone does automatch in EF, this is the only way to test PvP. Second, I personally and afaik Killar as well, asked Darc, Glimz many times for a game they didn't/don't even respond since they are too busy with Dota2 lol. If you want to be convinced that many things are broken in EF at the moment, the only way is pwn a dev in 1v1 but all of them somehow reluctant to play. So what's your other solution I wonder.

Sry, reallife prevents me from playing dota/coh/other games at all atm. So, what's so broken?

Well you may play any game you want, it's your pleasure and fun ofc and I can't judge that but since Beta Testing few months passed and since many issues reported personally or by some others through the forum. You don't need replays all the time, if you don't have time to play you can't watch a replay too. Also this is "your" mod and your badge requires attention and activity for this mod. If the issues explained clearly you can have an idea what's wrong with it. In Gr or COH2 noone asks replays!!! for balance issues, they talk about it because everyone knows what they are talking about. If it's a bug yes- you need replay but not balance issues.

We have also real life but If i wanna play a game, I play COH only so I pay more attention to this game and balance issues no matter what it's written on my badge. So play with people and see with your own eyes what's wrong.

Last edited November 16, 2013 at 7:54 PM by Riggsman

I agree with Riggsman.
I may not have every Dev in my friend list, but I never get a Dev asking me to play some EF. Ever. Because they are playing COH2 or Dota2 yes... Which is disappointing to say the least. I think overall balance of OH isn't bad, but it still needs some tweaks. Opinions may differ on the balance but if I would upload a replay it should be watched. Not only by Ape, but also by the other balancing Dev's.

Also, even if I am a Beta tester, I joined the Beta at the stage where everything was basically finalized and also my feedback wasn't of considerable value as I have become a much better player than I was back then, but it is better to have at least ideas than nothing at all.

However, my major concern for EF is the lack of knowledge. Your vision of balance is different than others, but if you don't want to change certain things it would be nice to at least explain us how to do it the right way. How to use this and that; when and what etc... Even some of the top players are surprised by certain units because they play a different role. Just an example would be the Sturmfusiliers MP-41. It's an smg so it should perform well in close range, but then I heard JuhwannX in one of his casts say that it is most effective at medium range. How should I know these things? Once again, just something like a mini series on youtube that would explain how each unit would work and where they perform best etc...
It might well be nitpicking, but I am just concerned about this mod because it is my favourite for VCOH.

We need like a (big) tournament again!

Last edited November 16, 2013 at 8:00 PM by chaosval3

Riggsman wrote:
[...]In Gr or COH2 noone asks replays!!![...]

Ofc not, both communities consist (mostly) of elitist douchebags who think they have the longest e-peen for being good at a certain game. It doesn't really matter if you post replays over there because noone cares at all anyways if you don't have a "expert" badge next to your name. It's been like this for years, even when I started online gaming 10 years ago.

Replays are neutral, you can rewatch them, slow them and pause them. I for myself can determine much better if a certain unit needs a damage/cost decrease&increase while watching a replay than by playing myself. When I'm playing I'm too busy to look at the unit's performance overall because I'm microing other stuff.

chaosval3 wrote:
I agree with Riggsman.
I may not have every Dev in my friend list, but I never get a Dev asking me to play some EF. Ever. Because they are playing COH2 or Dota2 yes... Which is disappointing to say the least. I think overall balance of OH isn't bad, but it still needs some tweaks. Opinions may differ on the balance but if I would upload a replay it should be watched. Not only by Ape, but also by the other balancing Dev's.

Also, even if I am a Beta tester, I joined the Beta at the stage where everything was basically finalized and also my feedback wasn't of considerable value as I have become a much better player than I was back then, but it is better to have at least ideas than nothing at all.

Quote
However, my major concern for EF is the lack of knowledge. Your vision of balance is different than others, but if you don't want to change certain things it would be nice to at least explain us how to do it the right way. How to use this and that; when and what etc... Even some of the top players are surprised by certain units because they play a different role. Just an example would be the

Once again, just something like a mini series on youtube that would explain how each unit would work and where they perform best etc...
It might well be nitpicking, but I am just concerned about this mod because it is my favourite for VCOH.

We need like a (big) tournament again!

Sort of agree. There are unit guides for Ostheer and Soviets, though already. Main problem is that we lack people who are good at casting/video editing etc. I for myself can't do that well.

So what's the difference here for every kind of criticism  if you require a replay? It's another type of elitism that "I don't care what you say, I am the boss and I'll check your replay, if i decide it's right maybe i will change". We are so long in this game and mod, I have to send an official application to be listened or what? lol. Afaik, when we made many games when Ost released, I remember on mumble that some of the actual balancers were whining about the current balance lol. They didn't see things until they play some other people who are out of their circle. They didn't need to ask replay because they played and experienced themselves.

I remember some said, they can find balancers and players in 5 mnts, it's really sad to see now how it was a failure statement.

Last edited November 16, 2013 at 8:48 PM by Riggsman

I just say that replays makes it easier for me to tweak stats for units on the fly, because I can focus on watching unit's combat performance like overall penetration, damage or the upkeep/manpower flow throughout the game instead of having to watch them AND micro them, because microing usually doesn't leave too much room for watching your units, unless you're playing a game like settlers where you can leave the PC for 5 minutes without missing something.

And another thing about the past "feedback" on the Ostheer. The only feedback that I've mostly noticed was stuff like "omg this is so broken, remake everything pls", "ostheer teching is broken fix pls".  Other feedback "omg it's not like wehr vs. USA, give Ostheer hmg in t1 so it plays like vCoH". Or "oh no sniperspam is so easy! It's broken!!!" or "HEy can u pls add tank xy to your faction? it looks so cool" "why Ostheer has no (insert random german secret weapon xy here) pls add it it will be fun" "oh no AI does not work properly I CANT COMPSTOMP WTF"

Everything that ever was "discussed" (aka being whined about) were massive design changes, 2 weeks into the release. Imagine relic listening to all the USA whiners about the mg42 at CoH release and removed it from t1 because "OMG mg42 so OP in buildings it supresses all my units WTF nerf/remove pls RIFLEMEN USELESS LOL" before flanking was discovered.

Nobody really cared to understand how soviets vs. Ostheer was supposed to be played, or how both factions were manufactured to work as factions themselves.  How units interact between each other. How the pool system was supposed to work. How the Ostheer/Soviet weapons work in combat. Which units serve which role etc. It was only compared to vCoH wehr vs. US, conclusion was that the new axis faction plays different and the gameplay was different so OF COURSE! it has to be changed. Also, nobody on the EF team got any clue how the game is played and so it's just IMPOSSIBLE that they could come up with a working design for the Ostheer/Soviets that plays well.

Some ppl like it, some people don't. So what? There also are ppl playing brits and PE because they like those factions over Wehr and US. Nobody forces anybody to play Ostheer vs. Soviets exclusively. Ostheer vs. US is fun, and Soviets vs. Wehr/PE also is fun, at least from my judgement from the games that I've played in the past. I don't say that there are no problems overall whatsoever, and we're working on solutions for that.

As we stated in the past, soviets were work in progress and a lot of feedback was included with the following patches, like adding a supression weapon for soviets earlygame, tweaking soviet tanks, reincluding the SU-85/100 again against axis heavies which t34 struggled against. Buffs to the IS 2, removing broken units like Sturmtiger, switching Panzerwerfer and Pz III, IS3 etc.

Just because someone thinks he got a super awesome idea for something doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea. Stuff needs to be tested instead of blindly including it. The current pz III is a nice example, the t3 flip accidentally was released with 2.200 and isn't really balanced in its current form. It was planned to be included with the upcoming 2.300 patch. An internal rollback from our server data slipped the testing changes into the release version without noticing.

Also, "5 mnts balancers blah blah" babbling was the personal opinion vom beefy and dmz, so don't bring that one up again. Ofc they were wrong, everyone knows that/knew that at that point. I personally found it extremely sad to see you, crani, dennis and killar go. But well, it has happened, it was shitty, but we can't do anything about it as it's well back into the past.

Also, while we're talking about balancer feedback: afaik the only balancers complaining were glimz and juhwann, but only after certain players started complaining about everything being broken on mumble for a week or two. It's called influence and prejudices. The one-eyed guy is the king among the blind.

Last edited November 17, 2013 at 12:01 AM by dArCReAvEr

Well, since COH1 is in a revival which I've anticipated long ago- and I am extremely glad, I think EF has a big chance to come back. I'll gladly help you in the process when I have time. I'll be off for 2-3 weeks. As you know very well I never asked some tanks or units to be added or erased, my feed backs were mostly about tweaking the abilities or stats. So if you need a hand, me and maybe killar will be glad to help.

Sure, every help is welcome.

dArCReAvEr wrote:
Also, "5 mnts balancers blah blah" babbling was the personal opinion vom beefy and dmz, so don't bring that one up again. Ofc they were wrong, everyone knows that/knew that at that point. I personally found it extremely sad to see you, crani, dennis and killar go. But well, it has happened, it was shitty, but we can't do anything about it as it's well back into the past.

Down, but never out.

I have been surveying the forum from time to time when I get some free time to look over how the mod is going and must say I am disappointed in the lack of community involvement, though I have heard that many are fed up with the way that CoH2 is and are coming back to the first game. Many of the old dogs have left and it saddens me that the work put into the mod is somewhat dulled because there are only a select few playing the mod.

Though I was always here to lend a hand in the past I am afraid that I have little time to offer you guys. University and Work is a burden but in a few weeks I may be able to borrow a few days to help if you so request it. Just shoot me an email for further details.

I can not say the same for Dennis.

Last edited November 23, 2013 at 5:03 PM by Cranialwizard

very nice
i would like to play again against the good old cranial :D

Or with him :P
Anyway... Mod work is one thing, real life is other - always keep that in mind before blaming us for not be able to play or doing nothing new for the mod.

Its always great if the old balancers want to get back and help. Their experience and skills are greater than mine and than most of the rest currently working. So, yes, help will be greatfully appreciated  :)