A few of my Ostheer balance concerns

Hey guys!

I am loving the mod and it is getting better and better with each new update. I know the balance is also getting better and better and maybe what I will say might already have been changed internally but, I'll state my two cents anyway as I have been playing Ostheer a ton as of late. So here we go:

1. The classical match-up I suppose, Landsers vs  Conscripts. There have been many discussions about Cons in the past and I personally think, as of right now, they are having the upper hand against Landsers. How so? Well, normal cons will lose outright ofc but when they get the extra rifles they are able to beat Landsers from long-range and sometimes even from close range because of their larger volumes of fire. I also question the buff to the Cons. I think they were fine before it. Requiring the Armoury  to get full rifles was nicely thought of and executed. I know that Cons scale badly into the game as should but they put a lot of pressure on Landsers together with the very powerful CS and Spotters along. If you take costs into consideration I think that Cons come out on top too. They are really cheap to reinforce and if you use them well early on, they won't bleed you that much. So I think it makes Landsers much too dependant on their upgrades which slows you in the teching race. I implore you to look at this early on gameplay balance situation and also having it reflect Operation Barbarossa better. If Cons don't scale well I don't see the reason for them still being used effectively in the late game

2. Okay, so I know Spotters and the LG 75 are going to be adjusted so I will refrain from making statements about them. I don't know if this is supposed to be but Spotters can shoot units out of a Halftrack like a Sniper can. Is this intended? It is frustrating to deal with as Spotters deal good damage already. Now the REAL point 2, the LMG-34 team for OH.
I personally think this unit is underperforming for its price. It seems that the MP-41's of the team deal more damage than the LMG itself... I keep it well behind my troops when fighting blobs but charge when facing isolated units but, I think it doesn't really excel at both. It sometimes even seems better to just to wait for it to drop the LMG and just pick it up with a Landser squad. They seem to work much better in a Halftrack or a building though. But, in general, I think that the MG-34 just seems a more favourable choice to suppress the Soviet blobs and it is cheaper too and harder to re-crew and steal it for them. I suggest either making this unit cost around 230-240 mp almost similar to the HMG team and change the overall damage output a bit. Make it so that the smg's deal slightly less damage but the LMG itself slightly more so that it feels more appropriate.

3. Finally, a simple one. The Tiger 1 of the Ostheer seems to get penetrated often even by T-34/76's frontally which is weird. It should be impervious with its 100 mm thick frontal armour.

I think I forgot the rest but oh well maybe next time.... Many thanks to those that took the time to read my wall of text and I have much love for this mod. I hope you can endure the coming times with COH2 and all!

Kind Regards,
warhammerchaosgod

I agree with the idea that Tiger should have a little bit more Armour.

But Imho the LMG34 Team ist very good, vs Russian Inf it makes a lot of Damage, and its very strong with VET.
The Cons are good in late game because they have nice AT Nades...
But i think the price of the Panzerjägers in T2 is too high because imho they are too bad vs T70 or T90. They have bad accuracy and an good Player can kill 1 Panzerjäger easily with an T70...

Codname wrote:
But i think the price of the Panzerjägers in T2 is too high because imho they are too bad vs T70 or T90. They have bad accuracy and an good Player can kill 1 Panzerjäger easily with an T70...

Play smart, use the 35muni teller and laugh at tanks after that.

May i ask what every type of vet dose in OH army, because in the description, the engine vet its the same with command vet. I have the feeling that getting vet for OH its not that rewarding. What it really needs is offensive vet to stop the red tide.

OH big animals are too soft. I'm reffering to the Elephant's front armour which is easily penetrated even by bazookas. 200mm thickness where are you?

P4 was the greatest dissapointment. I was expecting the good old panzer who could untertake any mission. Now its just an m18 hellcat with a different skin. It even cloack.. lol.

The Jaegers should be some tough mofo's, give them 4 g43 not just 2 like some lame pg's.

After i played a couple of game with OH i had the feeling that it has way too many units.  Marder 2 and pak40= redundant? And too much arty Vespe, Light field howie, Panzerwehrfer? I think the panzerwerfer should become doctrinal, but that its just a thought.

Pak40 its just a lazy pak38, when it should be a beast, just like the 17 pounder. Give it proper damage and a bigger bang. I think a vet3 pak38 out performs his bigger brother.

The little fucker called P2 luchs its op

Tom wrote:

Codname wrote:
But i think the price of the Panzerjägers in T2 is too high because imho they are too bad vs T70 or T90. They have bad accuracy and an good Player can kill 1 Panzerjäger easily with an T70...

Play smart, use the 35muni teller and laugh at tanks after that.

May i ask what every type of vet dose in OH army, because in the description, the engine vet its the same with command vet. I have the feeling that getting vet for OH its not that rewarding. What it really needs is offensive vet to stop the red tide.

OH big animals are too soft. I'm reffering to the Elephant's front armour which is easily penetrated even by bazookas. 200mm thickness where are you?

P4 was the greatest dissapointment. I was expecting the good old panzer who could untertake any mission. Now its just an m18 hellcat with a different skin. It even cloack.. lol.

The Jaegers should be some tough mofo's, give them 4 g43 not just 2 like some lame pg's.

After i played a couple of game with OH i had the feeling that it has way too many units.  Marder 2 and pak40= redundant? And too much arty Vespe, Light field howie, Panzerwehrfer? I think the panzerwerfer should become doctrinal, but that its just a thought.

Pak40 its just a lazy pak38, when it should be a beast, just like the 17 pounder. Give it proper damage and a bigger bang. I think a vet3 pak38 out performs his bigger brother.

The little fucker called P2 luchs its op

The elefant actually has the same armor type as the jagdpanther, so it should be hard to penetrate in game, maybe you just had bad luck

Panzer4 I can agree seems a bit uncreative with the cloak ability. I have a few ideas for some new abilities, and in the next patch its made more clear that its more anti-tank oriented similar to the panther

As for Jaegers, they probably only have 2 G43's for balance reasons. We can always give them 4, but the damage would have to be toned down then

The light field howie is meant as more of a mortar, so its not heavy arty like the panzerwerfer or wespe (which is doctrinal and only fires 4 shots)

If you thought ostheer has a lot of units, you should have seen how many there were in the original concept :P. The pak40 may have been lazy, but it is balanced. The marder II is more in line with the SU-76, though with more anti-tank fire-power, and unlike the pak is also more mobile

The pak40, sure we can give it a bigger bang, but we would have to increase the reload in return

chaosval3 wrote:
Hey guys!

I am loving the mod and it is getting better and better with each new update. I know the balance is also getting better and better and maybe what I will say might already have been changed internally but, I'll state my two cents anyway as I have been playing Ostheer a ton as of late. So here we go:

1. The classical match-up I suppose, Landsers vs  Conscripts. There have been many discussions about Cons in the past and I personally think, as of right now, they are having the upper hand against Landsers. How so? Well, normal cons will lose outright ofc but when they get the extra rifles they are able to beat Landsers from long-range and sometimes even from close range because of their larger volumes of fire. I also question the buff to the Cons. I think they were fine before it. Requiring the Armoury  to get full rifles was nicely thought of and executed. I know that Cons scale badly into the game as should but they put a lot of pressure on Landsers together with the very powerful CS and Spotters along. If you take costs into consideration I think that Cons come out on top too. They are really cheap to reinforce and if you use them well early on, they won't bleed you that much. So I think it makes Landsers much too dependant on their upgrades which slows you in the teching race. I implore you to look at this early on gameplay balance situation and also having it reflect Operation Barbarossa better. If Cons don't scale well I don't see the reason for them still being used effectively in the late game

2. Okay, so I know Spotters and the LG 75 are going to be adjusted so I will refrain from making statements about them. I don't know if this is supposed to be but Spotters can shoot units out of a Halftrack like a Sniper can. Is this intended? It is frustrating to deal with as Spotters deal good damage already. Now the REAL point 2, the LMG-34 team for OH.
I personally think this unit is underperforming for its price. It seems that the MP-41's of the team deal more damage than the LMG itself... I keep it well behind my troops when fighting blobs but charge when facing isolated units but, I think it doesn't really excel at both. It sometimes even seems better to just to wait for it to drop the LMG and just pick it up with a Landser squad. They seem to work much better in a Halftrack or a building though. But, in general, I think that the MG-34 just seems a more favourable choice to suppress the Soviet blobs and it is cheaper too and harder to re-crew and steal it for them. I suggest either making this unit cost around 230-240 mp almost similar to the HMG team and change the overall damage output a bit. Make it so that the smg's deal slightly less damage but the LMG itself slightly more so that it feels more appropriate.

3. Finally, a simple one. The Tiger 1 of the Ostheer seems to get penetrated often even by T-34/76's frontally which is weird. It should be impervious with its 100 mm thick frontal armour.

I think I forgot the rest but oh well maybe next time.... Many thanks to those that took the time to read my wall of text and I have much love for this mod. I hope you can endure the coming times with COH2 and all!

Kind Regards,
warhammerchaosgod

for #3, remember that even the king tiger has a small chance of being penetrated by the sherman in this game. The Ost tiger has the same health and armor as the whermacht tiger

Tom wrote:
[...]

The little fucker called P2 luchs its op

Well, let's gonna talk about the OP'ness of the Luchs. Why it is OP and do you have replays where we can see it being abused?

EDIT: Nvm, we are going to look at it.

Last edited October 24, 2013 at 9:10 PM by Blackbishop

Maybe I was really unlucky with the Tiger yeah but, I still have the replay were I get penetrated a few times with my Tiger by T-34/76.

I think Ostheer is fine overall just after a few small points and I actually like how Pools work. They don't feel like a cheap ripoff and allow fun 2v2 play with both players covering their weaknesses. To each his own I suppose.

I agree that the P4 ability is a bit bland but not necessarily bad. It is a cheap and cost effective AT unit I think and it can tango a bit with T-34/85's.

Well the Luchs insta-gibs a sniper when it hits and the turret-mounted mg seems to do more damage than the actual 20mm cannon itself..but it is getting there. I think it is almost spot-on. Less mg damage and more cannon damage like the Puma :) Don't know about the sniper part really.

Jaegers are fine. I held with two, G43 equipped, Jaegers an entire Soviet blob. It was marvelous! I love these fellas.

Elefant is fine too. Even the very useful Zis-2 cannot penetrate it. Can't recall how many times it saved my ass.

And about Pak40, are you serious? This thing is a beast! It about two shoots every light vehicles and does massive damage and has nice range. I think it is mighty fine.

robotnik wrote:


As for Jaegers, they probably only have 2 G43's for balance reasons. We can always give them 4, but the damage would have to be toned down then

The pak40, sure we can give it a bigger bang, but we would have to increase the reload in return

Thats the problem with the g43, its a waste on larger squads, might as well go for mp44 and get 4 of them. Probably you could make the second g43 package a lot more expensive, 75 or 100 muni  or a REWARD at vet 4 or whatever that eagle is.  And i dont see how it could be unbalanced taking in consideration that OH doesnt support offensive vet.

Pak 40 i misjudged it, however, a distinct sound would be better. Now it sounds like the marder if i'm not mistaken.

People are used with the vetted Tiger. Nobody uses a vet0 tiger, hence the shock. It gets penetrated  by a sherman sometimes. Even a panther deflects better.

The Elephants its bugged or whatever. I read in a different topic that there is the same problem with the Jagdtiger also built on the Jagpanther. Since they are such monstrous tanks with incredible frontal armor maybe they should be built on the KT.

Marder III uses the PaK 40 as main weapon, that's why the PaK 40 most likely uses the Marder sound.

Blackbishop wrote:
Marder III uses the PaK 40 as main weapon, that's why the PaK 40 most likely uses the Marder sound.

We are able to add new sounds to the game, right? if so I can make a new pak sound for it

Suit yourself.

Using a custom, online compatible, soundpack so I am not having any problems with sounds  ;D. On that basis you could actually add new sounds to almost everything the Ostheer has new or just to differ from everything the other German factions have really...

chaosval3 wrote:
Using a custom, online compatible, soundpack so I am not having any problems with sounds  ;D. On that basis you could actually add new sounds to almost everything the Ostheer has new or just to differ from everything the other German factions have really...

Thats a good ideea, thx.

What's the deal with combat training, the combat pioneers receives for a massive 75 muni? You can't even buy the flamer after that, so i find the upgrade useless. Nobody will buy that upgrade. Why would u like to make a unit tougher when it deals little to no damage. 

A suggestion. For 25-50 muni get expert repair on those combat pios instead of combat training. The famo comes really late and maybe some strats dont involve T4.

Tom wrote:

chaosval3 wrote:
Using a custom, online compatible, soundpack so I am not having any problems with sounds ;D. On that basis you could actually add new sounds to almost everything the Ostheer has new or just to differ from everything the other German factions have really...

Thats a good ideea, thx.

What's the deal with combat training, the combat pioneers receives for a massive 75 muni? You can't even buy the flamer after that, so i find the upgrade useless. Nobody will buy that upgrade. Why would u like to make a unit tougher when it deals little to no damage.

A suggestion. For 25-50 muni get expert repair on those combat pios instead of combat training. The famo comes really late and maybe some strats dont involve T4.

It also increases the damage and accuracy of their weapons by 33%, so it does make their weapons better as well

By guns you mean those lame mp40, no thx. It would be a good adition in combination with a flamer (OP?).

Or it would suit better a different unit, a larger one. Or maybe it wouldnt, causing imbalance. Anyway as it is right now, will definitely remain an underused upgrade.

Tbh i often use the combat training upgrade for stormpios.
they fight pretty good vs conscripts. If you prefer a flamer go for assault pool and upgrade them with a flamer.

Sturmpioneer Upgrade is one of the best things Ostheer have....
With Combat Upgrade you can Cap VPs in late Game, repair near to the front and fight......
Good and Strong combination: Sturmpioneer wir Combat Training + Tier1 Support Upgrade (then they cap faster :P)

Codname wrote:
Sturmpioneer Upgrade is one of the best things Ostheer have....
With Combat Upgrade you can Cap VPs in late Game, repair near to the front and fight......
Good and Strong combination: Sturmpioneer wir Combat Training + Tier1 Support Upgrade (then they cap faster :P)

If it would include expert repair in this huge price than it would make sense to repair near the front, otherwise the war ends until you finish your repairs. And those famo's are so clumbsy, not to mention that they get owned pretty fast if ur not careful, 1 sticky and its gone.

And honestly the vet system needs a little rework. Why would i give repair vet to combat units like landser, jaegers sturmfusiliers. They are made to kill even better once vetted. Except for the medkit which acts more like wehr vet1 infa i dont see much use of this vetting system. Some offensive/defensive vet would be better.

It looks like you don't get the vet system. The unit itself gets combat bonuses anyways. The chooseable vet is only utility. Medic helps your infantry, mechanics help your vehicles and scout helps your support units (larger line of sight and stuff). Same for vehicles: all vehicles get stuff like more accuracy and more damage anyways. The driver, loader, commander vet only changes a certain aspect of the vehicle. Better defense, better AI or better speed.

About the famo : agree, that vehicle was on my to-do list. I'll check its stats and see what I can do.

Last edited October 27, 2013 at 12:12 PM by dArCReAvEr

The marksman's burst fire ability seems useless. What's the point of damaging units opposed to sniping them every shot?

Do u used it?
Easy way to kill a group of soldiers  ;)
(But u need guys to finish the job)

Is the Brumbar just a cheap copy of stuh42? Because it feels like it but it comes late in the game as an elephant. It has a 150mm gun, make it own just like the KV1. I was surprised when KV1 was anihilating vet 3 grens with its masive explosion. Thats exactly how the brumbar should to be. Just my thoughts.

1.) U are talking about the KV-1 or KV-2 tank? Because the last one is a heavy anti infantry weapon.
2.) Brummbär is a much better version of the StuH. Bigger gun, more demage, good armor and good against infantry and infantry blobs.
With Tiger I a good armored battle group. 

Also, i think more than 1 brumbar can be called in at a time, unlike the KV-2

I do think it comes a bit late though at i think it was 8 CP

It is a nice answer against this typical soviet late game guards troops. When u come under pressure by this guards the Brummbär can save your ass ;)

Nah. I'm not impressed, because it fires the stuh round, sometimes when it hits in the middle of the squad does no damage (random), exactly like the stuh. I can't say the same thing about the KV2, that beast really puts the hurt on infantry.

Although KV2 and Brumbar has the same caliber, the brumbar explosion and area of effect its much smaller.

Its probably done for balance reasons. looking at the stats the brumbar is definitely more powerful than the stuh, but less powerful than the KV-2.

But the KV-2 is like the tiger in that only 1 can be called in at a time, while you can have multiple brumbars out at a time.

Im thinking of giving the brumbar an ability or something to make it more powerful.

Thing is: Army Elite already has the strongest infantry (panzerkrieg bonus near vehicles, Pincer movement, faster vet) and the strongest tank (Tiger). If you now also add strong artillery to the doctrine it's overpowered. That's also the reason why the Sturmtiger is not in this doctrine anymore.

Also, the Brummbär is a bitch to take down in direct combat. It's armour is decent and you're pretty much forced to use tanks vs. Brummbärs, because AT guns and inf don't cut it.

well, it feels like this doctrine has too much already. maybe it would do better without the brummbar. it comes so late and by that time chances are the soviet already got high tier tanks.

the pincer movement costs 150muni and makes all your troops to sprint?

Brumbär comes too late????
Then Elefant comes late too ;D
It would be OP if it comes earlier :P

Codname wrote:
Brumbär comes too late????
Then Elefant comes late too ;D
It would be OP if it comes earlier :P

You dont understand. Stuh42 come really quick compared to the brumbar, and its not op.

Elephant should come late, its almost like a KT.

The Brummbar is no StuH. In terms of function it serves the same role, but both vehicles utilize weapons of different calibers, ranges and damage, a different chassis, different hp etc.

StuH 42 is "only" a StuG with 400 hp and a 105mm howitzer that deals 100 dmg every 6-7 seconds.  (oh, and since the 4cp-change in 2.602 it's actually considered slightly OP in vCoH)
The Brummbär used to have a pIV chassis with 700 hp, a better armourtype than a pIV and used a 150 dmg howitzer every 5-6 seconds.

Because of the higher base damage it used to 1 hit kill entire squads. A single Brummbär could dominate the game easily, especially since its well armoured and can take some hits from AT guns. Just like the Sturmtiger. The only chance to actually kill it are soviet tanks, but they're also well countered by Army Elite's Tiger tanks. So overall, the Brummbär is uncounterable and army elite OP.

Best AI, best infantry and best tanks. That's why it was nerfed and the Sturmtiger removed from Army Elite.

Last edited November 4, 2013 at 12:12 AM by dArCReAvEr

Agree on the 75 muni buying better repairs for Sturmpioneers.