infantry

first , im not bothered by it but was the tank hunter unit for the soviets removed? i cant figure out where to get them and ive tried all commanders. did i just miss some files or something because other than not being able to find them my games is completly up to date and im having no problems with it. but the reason i made this is because some of the infantry of both sides seems incredibly weak in some way. for example i usually pump out infantry as soviets in the order that infantry get better. (conscripts , strelky , red banner strelky , guards , shock guards)but i fond that my red banner upgraded strelky are outclassed by the conscripts when they get the ppsh 41 upgrade because they need to be touching an enemy squad to be able to do anything effectively. and the guards are limited too. it says they are good against light vehicles and infantry but again conscripts can do more damage because they get an anti-tank grenade and guards and shock guards can only stun vehicles. so i try to use them as close range anti-infantry but they can only get the pps-43 upgrade as breakthrough assault commander so i have to play that if i want any sort of late game anti-infantry capabilities. why is the pps-43 for guards only available for breakthrough anyways? is it too special too have as an upgrade for all commanders? the only problem im having with ostheer infantry right now is their mortar. why is it so short range?

Last edited July 30, 2013 at 10:22 PM by SPIDAMAYUN

Yes, Tank Hunters were removed from the Soviets in the latest patch, but if you want to have light anti tank rifles, you can upgrade your streiky with the PTRS-41 rifle right after you upgrade Men Against Tanks in the armory. You could also go the Propaganda doc to get Naval Infantry which can be upgraded with the PTRD rifles.

I'm surprised that you find conscripts more effective than both streiky and guards. Personally I find unupgraded streiky much more effective than conscripts, for they automatically have 6 rifles that are equivalent to the conscripts. Plus they have much more health, so they don't die as quickly.

It's true that you have to get streiky close to the enemy with the ppsh 41 rifles to be effective, but if you're looking for long-ranged combat you should upgrade your streiky with the dp-28 light machine guns (or whatever the other upgrade they get is called). Steiky armed with dp-28 light mgs are really effective at long range and should be able to hold your lines until you are ready to pump out guards.

Guards are really powerful and considered to be the late game Soviet Infantry and are really effective without any upgrades, but when upgraded with shock guards and the SVT-40 rifle package, they are really effective mid to long range anti-infantry units. I think the pps-43 upgrade was given only to Breakthrough doc because it made the guards too powerful against infantry.

Guards aren't really made to take on any vehicles by themselves, they need support from tanks or AT guns to take on any armor. When in conjunction with T-34s or the Zis-2, they should be able to destroy any light vehicles and destroy or be able to push back enemy heavy tanks. The best way to damage tanks is use the stun grenade to slow vehicles down and then have your tanks flank the enemy to deal massive damage.

And I'm pretty sure the Ostheer don't have a mortar unit, but they do have an Infantry Support Gun. And if I remember correctly it's got a really long range. It's range is equal to the Soviet mortar if not longer I believe.

Last edited July 30, 2013 at 10:54 PM by LiefTundra

The Ostheer do have a mortar unit.  It's virtually the same as the Wehrmacht one, though, and comes with Assault specialization, though.  The ISG for the Ostheer right now is a helluva lot more effective than the mortar, so hopefully something will be done with that.

It has been taken care of IIRC. It's been nerfed to not be an arti unit like it currently is. It's ridiculous how good it was. It was actually too good if you look at it right. The problem with the ISG is that it would outclass the russian mortar easily. If you thought the russian mortar was ridiculous wait till you see the ISG at vet 2 or 3. You've never seen rape, before you've seen that :P. It's been nerfed to where it won't outright gib squads with being about as accurate as a sniper, along with doing the DPS of an Arti shell. I've seen conscripts die in seconds to that thing. And due to it's so low cost, and the fact it came with the MG-34, you basically had the best defensive push ever. Along with that fortress would just basically make you unstoppable, as you defensively push the offensive with OP vet 2 Landsers with MKB's and G41's. And I specifically call out Vet 2 landsers, due to the current patch having them get so many cooldown, reload, and accuracy modifiers at vet 2, that they basically have the following:
100+% accuracy = They never miss.
Increased Reload/Cooldown modifiers = They never stop firing.
So yeah. Don't worry about the OH being super OP next patch. That's all getting fixed :) But stay active on the forum asking questions and the like, it's always good to have some good balance and unit discussion. If you feel something is OP or UP, call it out. We need you all as forum users to tell us these things. As we can't test every single unit combo and all of that.

@lieftundra
about the pps-43 upgrade , its the only thing that really makes it so the guards can be an assualt troop because to me the svt-40 rifles just dont work for anyting other than defensive play and the pps-43 upgrade is 100 munitions anyways so i think it should be for all commanders because although yes, it is very strong at close range its ridicuolously high priced and too costly to support having more than 1-2 squads with it unless your dominating all the munition points on the map and against other players or hard & expert AI , how often does that happen?not alot for me.

@juhwannx
you want to know a unit thats UP? try the assault upgrade on the ingenery  :P not worth it at all a 25 fuel upgrade then 150 manpower and 75 munitions!?! to me it feels like the body armor makes them weaker XD and the ppsh-41 like i stated  requires you to be touching the enemy for your troops kills to be consistent.

Last edited July 31, 2013 at 12:03 AM by SPIDAMAYUN

The body armor lets your Ingenery touch the others guys quite effectively. :)

The sturmovik upgrade is a bit over priced, dependant on your view, ill agree. I personnally don't get sturmoviks. Standardly dedicated CQC infantry dont fit my style. Especially when they're as expensive as sturmoviks. They cost the same as guards in term of reinforcement cost. Maybe remove the muni cost, or lowe it down to 150 MP, 30-50 Muni's, 10-15 fuel. Considering how the ostheer sturmpio's is a close fight vs sturmo's, and those are 75 munis for ostheer, I say just lose the fuel and mp charge in general. Sturmoviks cant fight tanks, nor can they place mines of any type (ATM at least), nor can they build base buildings anymore IIRC. So yeah they MIGHT need a price nerf. However we can't balance based on games vs ai. The ai gets resource bonus' and increased unit health. However even in pvp i dont use sturmoviks so maybe it is a real problem with there pricing.

@SPIDAMAYUN

Well I'm no balancer or developer, but I think putting the PPS-43 rifles in the Breakthrough doc is a smart decision, because when I use guards with SVT-40s, they massacre all types of infantry whether it is an assault or defense. I just make sure that they find good cover, stay in one place (because they don't fire very well on the move), and fight mid-long range skirmishes to use the their rifles at full effect. I also use my guards to support my tanks against infantry instead of having them lead an assault by themselves.

The Command Squad already has the PPS-43 rifles and they destroy infantry at close range. If guards were to have that same destructive power and you could build unlimited squads, I would feel like they would be OP. Plus if you want close combat infantry, you can get penal conscripts in the Propaganda doc and Partisans which can camouflage until close distances in the Urban Combat doc. Naval Infantry are also pretty good at all ranges.

@lieftundra
okay then the problem is that we have different playstyles. like i said i basically spam the crud outta infantry and push with tanks when i get the fuel for it , so im pretty much just using human wave tactics with my disregard for any units life and my units are always firing because they are rarey out of combat unless i retreated them and am reinforcing. i dont really ever get any squads past vet 1 other than tanks and my playstyle surrounds CQC supported by the occasional tank which is why i invest so much in SMG's over the LMG's and other things which is why i use the pps-43 upgrade so much . as you said you get your units to cover , well i make my units run right through lines of fire and get into ridiculous battles that they can never win quite often. i dont use the commander because i find he isnt worth the 300 manpower because of how often my units get slaughtered .

That tactic might have worked in real life but against another human player theyll just crush that with suppression teams, snipers, and anti infantry tanks. Along with alot of arti and mines. Then just rush your base with all of that and crush you.

Navals have natural svts so they're pretty badass on their own. They don't fit into alot of my games, but when they are grouped with guards you have some pretty badass at/ai capability.

@juhwannx
well i haven't lost many games so far using this tactic and that's including 3-4 PVP matches :/ generally i get ahead at the start of the match and get most of the resources then when my opponent starts using tanks , MG's and mortars i just get t-70's and t-90's to push them off until my troops can get through and cause havoc by destroying pretty much everything and recapping the points my opponent took back when they launched the small tank attacks.

Well I'm rather surprised that this tactic works for you, but you know whatever floats your boat. :P And of course conscripts are better than guards in your tactic because if they're all going to get slaughtered might as well spam the cheaper and weaker infantry who do about the same amount of damage to the enemies under suppression. If you want to charge with infantry that are probably get murdered, that's basically what conscripts are made for. I think guards are fine as they are, used as support infantry and elite infantry, not as frontline charging infantry because they are pretty expensive.

If you enjoy charging with infantry so much, you really should use the Propaganda doc because
1. The Commisar call-in makes your conscripts better in combat
2. You can upgrade your conscripts to assault penal troops
3. The Red Tide is an ideal ability for charging especially if you're troops are probably going to lose the battle.

the conscripts are only better if i have all 4 squads other than that my guards with the pps-43 are much better against everything but vehicles (only stun grenade) because of their SMG's. But again i need to say that this upgrade is 100 munitions and you can only really support 1-2 squads having it at the max , which is why i think it should be on all commanders/doctrines because it makes guards as versatile as the game says they are. also about the mortar thing from earlier i dont know if were talking about the same thing but i was talking about the Ief 75 or something like that , its the mini artillery from the 2nd ostheer building.

Guards used to be able to upgrade to PPS-43s without a doc in an earlier patch if IIRC, and it was moved to the breakthrough doc because it was too powerful. I have to agree with the devs and balancers because my guards are able to take on all other axis heavy infantry, with the SVT-40 rifles and the DP-28 light machine gun, excluding the KCH. I can only imagine the havoc they would bring if you could get PPS-43 rifles in all docs. This is my opinion, maybe a dev or balancer can answer your question better than I can. :P And the Command Squad already can be upgraded with the PPS-43s and their actually cheaper than guards plus earlier to get and just as much health (per squad).

The 75mm leIG18 (Infantry Support Gun) which kinda acts like a mortar for Ostheer has a freaking huge range. I tried it today and it's range far exceeds the Soviet Mortar (basically what JuhwannX and The Soldier said in earlier posts). The only other thing I think you're talking about is the way it faces. Yes the ISG has a really small area where it can fire because it can only fire directly in front of it. Just make sure you put it really far behind the front lines (to abuse it's long range) and face toward the direction the enemies are coming.

SPIDAMAYUN wrote:
the conscripts are only better if i have all 4 squads other than that my guards with the pps-43 are much better against everything but vehicles (only stun grenade) because of their SMG's. But again i need to say that this upgrade is 100 munitions and you can only really support 1-2 squads having it at the max , which is why i think it should be on all commanders/doctrines because it makes guards as versatile as the game says they are. also about the mortar thing from earlier i dont know if were talking about the same thing but i was talking about the Ief 75 or something like that , its the mini artillery from the 2nd ostheer building.

That was the whole point of making it doctrinal. No more guardspam.

I've done several tests of pps guards and pps shock guards against all other elite infantry. Even other allied infantry. For fun :P. And in every situation the shock guards won. Even vanilla guards (without shock upgrade) would come close to winning against all other elite infantry. All of these tests were done with different vet levels and all. So pps shock guards would be pretty ridiculous IMHO for every commander. At vet 3 shock guards/guards get an extra member. And in the next patch he gives the guards an extra weapon slot. So you could have super rape shock guards with pps', lmg, and shreck. Vehicles and infantry beware.