[[IP address redacted]] Snipers: Not an adequate fix

Hello all!

This will be my first return to the forum in a long time. Firstly I want to congratulate all those that stuck with the project this long. This is a major step towards the final goal. However, there are some tweaks that I feel should be made to balance.

I want to file a formal balance complaint towards the Soviet Sniper Team.

I saw the news that you had integrated the sniper team back into gameplay and thought that the developers finally had a change of thought and made the sniper team to where if one man dies, the other will also. Previously this idea was unheard of and as a result we reduced the sniper team to one man to prevent the imbalance that they created, not only amongst other snipers but also for the entirety of the game.

As I can observe I see that when the sniper team is sniped it does indeed die off all at once. But if it picks up a casualty in any other way, the team survives. Doing this half fix does not do anything good for balance. In the few games I've played against other experienced people who I do not make an agreement with not to abuse the gap created in the soviet snipers, said players spam snipers. I played a game where a player made 1 conscript and 4 snipers, and was able to make the jump straight to T-34s. I had multiple Kubels and they were absolutely useless to the sniper blob. The players walk around fearlessly without camo knowing that the sniper can not be killed unless he is counter sniped and if he is close to losing half his health the retreat and reinforce is right there for him. I even used Panzer III's (!!!) to attack these snipers and managed to nab 3 of them...only to see the whole blob run back to base unscathed because I had just hit the spare members of the sniper squad. The blob came right back and sniped off a fresh couple of PaKs and it was GG. I can see many experienced players, including myself, quitting the game on this basis. I have spoken with others about this topic and many agree with me.

When I was on the team and told that the sniper team must be reintroduced I made the clear statement that it must act as a support team does: When one of the guys dies, the other must do so as well.

"No, that's not realistic"

This is my last time I will say it, but this realism vs gameplay/balance debate needs to end. The game is going to have some funny aspects to it that may not have happened in real life warfare. Frankly, it's a poor excuse as to leave it unbalanced.

"That's stupid, how come the other guy has to die? Omg it doesn't happen in real life"

57mm ATG
60mm Mortar
81mm Mortar Units
Pak 38
OBR teams
Flak 38
Flak 88
Pak 40
Commando Mortars
105mm Howitzers

Theses are a handful of units where if there is 1 man remaining in the squad, that remaining member will die and the weapon becomes de-crewed.

"But the sniper isn't a support weapon"

Actually, it is. If the sniper is to remain a 2 man squad it needs to be treated in death like a support squad.

"But COH2 did it! And Modern Combat Mod did it!"

And look at the balance of Company of Hereos 2 and the Modern Combat mod. It's an absolute mess. In more detail, the balance of the modern combat mod is less noticeable because the existing sniper mechanics of the game had been changed when the vCoh factions were in their right state removed.

To those whom still support the fallacy of a balanced, 2 man sniper squad that can be reinforced, and you know who you are: It will never, ever work with Company of Heroes unless a dynamic change is made to the mod. (IE removing the vcoh factions and starting fresh...but that would be a devastation to the hard work towards balance and frankly, most people like it.)

Lets talk about the community. From my observations it's been fairly dry since I've seen last but I hope that the release of the OH will spark new interest in the mod, I truly do. And often, the team must implement what the community wants. It has been seen that much of the community is very excited to see the return of the soviet sniper team. From an aesthetic point of view, it's a cool and unique thing that is fun to play with, but when you mention it, most experienced players cringe at the idea.

The options to fix this are cut and dry, and there's no way you can really fanagle them:

1. Leave the Sniper Team as 2 men, but when 1 dies the other does as well (FROM ALL METHODS OF DEATH)
2. Reduce the sniper team back to 1 man as all other vcoh snipers are (The community may cry)

If this is not fixed, from a balance standpoint, then the entire additional factions are in a state of broken gameplay, especially in team games where players can easily get away with these kinds of abuses. I'm not looking for arguments, I'm speaking the truth.

You WILL see vital community members either abusing this tactic or quitting the game. It is your call and you have the chance to salvage what is, undoubtedly, the most well done mod of the COH community.

Sort of agree. However, sniper teams take a lot of additional damage from Kubel/schwimm/bike weaponry and should be killed of very easily so I'm actually puzzled why you didn't stand a chance against the snipers. I'll have a look on this matter of course. I'll search for a suitable solution that we'll include in the next patch. If that fails we'll roll back to the 1man sniper like it was in the past.

I'd agree with these testaments. Company of Heroes might be set in a historical period, but we have to take into account the one thing that makes Company of Heroes what it is: It's a damn video game. Let's stop getting on these stupid historical debates about accuracy, usability, etc, and make a damn good balanced mod. Sure Soviets used a 2 man sniper team. But if that gets in the way of gameplay, then we have to throw that idea out of the way, and not fall into the cries of fanboys who really want it to work. Just go back to the 1 guy, or remove the vCoH factions from the mod. But if we did the latter, we'd lose alot of what brings people to EF, and it wouldn't be great.

The regular sniper has an HP of 75, costs 340MP and needs 50 seconds to be deployed. The two man sniper was supposed to be using these same stats, HP of 37.5 per entity(75 HP for both), 170MP as individual cost(340 for both entities) and 25 seconds of build time (50 for the whole squad).

But it uses right now 50HP(100HP for both) and 20s of build time(40s for both) so I can understand why you have problems with them, because if the sniper team would have the stats I posted above it would be fine. Why? Because:

1- It would have the same HP as a one man sniper, which means if you don't kill it you weren't likely to kill it even if it was a one man squad.
2- It just has one weapon, which means it can only fire as a regular sniper.
3- When counter sniped it dies as any one man sniper would.
4- The only thing I'm not sure right now and could be tweaked is that when you kill one of the members of the sniper team without the help of your snipers you can reinforce it, if it would be one man squad you would just lose health which you can recover using the medikit(wehr), triage center(us), ccs(cw), def ops(pe) and vet medikits/medic ht(oh). With the Soviet sniper you would recover it by reinforcing and the rest of the HP with the ZiS-5.

The issue with those 37.5 hp/unit was that they made the sniper too easily killable by infantry weapons. They got even destroyed by volks.. That's why they have more hitpoints/man. However, like I said the normal anti sniper weapons have ~50% increased damage against sniper teams, which offsets the additional hitpoints.

Well, then we would need a replay to check this out.

Here is a replay of a 1v1 in which I played 2 conscripts, 3 snipers, and left myself hanging until T3 T70 and was admittedly on the sore side, but dominated with just 3 snipers being the infantry force and the (surviving) conscript as a lone capper. Held on after a bad tech up move and killed a tiger with 2 t34s, even though it was guarded by shrecks. (Because guess what? Snipers survived till late game thanks to reinforcing mechanic.)

The opponent was actively harassing my snipers, didn't matter, because I could reinforce and reuse them.

Again, I strongly suggest you switch to when one dies, the other will. Likely I would have lost the match if this (justified) rule was in place.

EDIT: Had he gotten the kill from actually killing 2 of those team members and finished off the 2 squads, he would have easily won the match.

Last edited July 9, 2013 at 11:10 PM by Cranialwizard

I agree I dislike sniper spam with these 2 man squads. I hate them....

And lets not even start about how this 2 man sniper squad can break the SU vs. PE match up. Considering PE has NO SNIPER ABILITY OR UNIT WHATSOEVER, the arguement of "Well snipers counter snipers, so it's balanced" is completely fucked and turned on it's head.

Snipers have been always the bane of PE, and a two men sniper that acts like a one man sniper squad doesn't change that. Soviets can break PE with single snipers as well which was talked a lot in the balance section, so this is not just because in the latest version has this duo.

Blackbishop wrote:
Snipers have been always the bane of PE, and a two men sniper that acts like a one man sniper squad doesn't change that. Soviets can break PE with single snipers as well which was talked a lot in the balance section, so this is not just because in the latest version has this duo.

So you're telling me that PE should sit there and be burdened with no way to actually kill the sniper like a support team?

Blaming this piece of bad balance on "Oh snipers are always terrible" is an extremely poor excuse. Unless there is actual debate behind as to why they SHOULD have 2 men and why they SHOULD be able to be reinforced, unlike any other support squad in the game, then this is a waste of my time.

Did you even WATCH my replay? How one sniper took a mine to his face, but his team mate was just a little further from it and I could reinforce them? That would have killed a single sniper.

How about when a Kugel found my snipers, managed to nab a couple and I got away with 3 sniper teams? (Not Kubels, though they played a part)
I played terribly on purpose to show that all you effectively needed to do was get snipers, hold out until T4 and your enemy is toast, you can see that I was floating resources from time to time simply because I could sit back and watch the meat shield snipers run the infantry down. Your snipers can not be killed unless your enemy went support mode (Or T1 in Wehrmacht's sake) and this "Oh the health is spread out" is not a good cover up. When a bike or kubel targets the squad it focuses on one of the members, not both. So really, you have a weak guy with an insurance man sitting next to him holding the rifle. Plenty of time to escape.

I'm not even ADVOCATING a 1 man sniper! I think the 2 man sniper is a cool idea, but it will not EVER work in the COH1 Universe if the vanilla factions are still here. Keep your 2 man sniper, just make it act like a support squad in that they'll both die. It will have the unique look and be balanced simultaneously.

I'm not here to troll, I'm here to help. If you're going to stonewall me with buckets of bad excuses then I will leave as it's not worth my time to try and debunk garbage responses that are used to hold onto this design until I go away.

Last edited July 10, 2013 at 2:06 PM by Cranialwizard

I saw your replay, and your sniper teams weren't in real danger most of the time and not by their design of two men squad. Maybe right now the two men squads is a bit strong, but your replay doesn't prove that(however, not saying there is not more evidence around nor denying the problem). A mine hit on the sniper team was never thought as possible scenario of death, that could be fixed.

However, if you are unable to have a proper discussion then leave. Having more drama than actual discussion is not a good thing.

Can't we all just get along? :) I mean I understand the frustration, it's ridiculous that soviets sniper team has to be like it is. I don't like it cause it slows them down. It leaves them at a much higher chance to be detected. Rather than being a dot, they're two dots, stuck together in an unnecessary marriage of slow moving and easy detectablility.

I'll try to keep the things simple;

1- There's no 100% equal and mirrored units in COH, this is the design and which makes the game interesting.
2- Vcoh Snipers have the most "equal" look but in fact they are not- both USA and Wehr snipers have different responses and qualities acc to their vet except Health Points.
3- That's why I support 2 man SU sniper team because of the 1st reason.

however;

If the "Cause of Death" differs for this unit - which is at the moment -then it's a major problem. Reinforcing the sniper team on the field is a game breaker. period. A sniper in death danger retreats and if survives, gets the chance to go on doing his job, but 2 man sniper team looses a man by mine or strafe or bike hit- whatever, reinfs and keeps shooting, then this is a serious "advantage" and very clear indicator of "imbalance".

Especially for PE, you may loose your AC to a mine or Krak nade while trying to chase and kill the team but kill only 1 man, and tatam! SU sniper team still alive. Same thing can happen for PGs, you may loose your squad while chasing, but at the end you loose your valuable squad by taking this risk because of the actual design and at the end SU is rewarded. It loads "more risk" to the opposite team than the normal and acceptable risk factor. That also hurts the "exchangeable loss" mechanics. You kila sniper but loose an AC, that's ok. You loose a Luchs but team survives by one man. It's not ok.

It's a clear and visible fact and you don't need 10 replays to "prove it".

That's a balance problem.

Last edited July 10, 2013 at 4:54 PM by Riggsman

Riggsman wrote:
I'll try to keep the things simple;

1- There's no 100% equal and mirrored units in COH, this is the design and which makes the game interesting.
2- Vcoh Snipers have the most "equal" look but in fact they are not- both USA and Wehr snipers have different responses and qualities acc to their vet except Health Points.
3- That's why I support 2 man SU sniper team because of the 1st reason.

however;

If the "Cause of Death" differs for this unit - which is at the moment -then it's a major problem. Reinforcing the sniper team on the field is a game breaker. period. A sniper in death danger retreats and if survives, gets the chance to go on doing his job, but 2 man sniper team looses a man by mine or strafe or bike hit- whatever, reinfs and keeps shooting, then this is a serious "advantage" and very clear indicator of "imbalance".

Atm sniper teams have more total hitpoints compared to normal snipers. Pretty much ~ 33% more max health (100 compared to 75). We'll lower the hitpoints to 40 per man (80 total hp) for the next patch and then we'll see how it goes.

I agree, there should be ways to instagib the sniper team just as the regular sniper would, in example being strafed or hitting a mine... however axis factions do not use strafe. We can find a way to fine tune them until we get them in a proper state IMO.

@JuhwannX
I guess I can try to stick them closer when moving :).

Riggsman wrote:
I'll try to keep the things simple;

1- There's no 100% equal and mirrored units in COH, this is the design and which makes the game interesting.
2- Vcoh Snipers have the most "equal" look but in fact they are not- both USA and Wehr snipers have different responses and qualities acc to their vet except Health Points.
3- That's why I support 2 man SU sniper team because of the 1st reason.

however;

If the "Cause of Death" differs for this unit - which is at the moment -then it's a major problem. Reinforcing the sniper team on the field is a game breaker. period. A sniper in death danger retreats and if survives, gets the chance to go on doing his job, but 2 man sniper team looses a man by mine or strafe or bike hit- whatever, reinfs and keeps shooting, then this is a serious "advantage" and very clear indicator of "imbalance".

Especially for PE, you may loose your AC to a mine or Krak nade while trying to chase and kill the team but kill only 1 man, and tatam! SU sniper team still alive. Same thing can happen for PGs, you may loose your squad while chasing, but at the end you loose your valuable squad by taking this risk because of the actual design and at the end SU is rewarded. It loads "more risk" to the opposite team than the normal and acceptable risk factor. That also hurts the "exchangeable loss" mechanics. You kila sniper but loose an AC, that's ok. You loose a Luchs but team survives by one man. It's not ok.

It's a clear and visible fact and you don't need 10 replays to "prove it".

That's a balance problem.

^ This, I love how the 2 man sniper is unique but if the cause of death is not by sniper and a ridiculous effort is made to kill said unit but you only manage to nab one man then we have an issue on our hands. One will go down before the other because there is probably one guy closer to the guns that are blazing at him and by the time the retreat button is hit they can run away.

This would be as if the ZIS-2 could pack up and leave with 1 guy left.

Blackbishop wrote:
I agree, there should be ways to instagib the sniper team just as the regular sniper would, in example being strafed or hitting a mine... however axis factions do not use strafe. We can find a way to fine tune them until we get them in a proper state IMO.

@JuhwannX
I guess I can try to stick them closer when moving :).

Or, you could just have them instagib when one of them goes down. Perhaps as a bonus to this fact you leave the health as is.

Sticking them closer together will help but doesn't solve the problem. It's a band-aid for the actual issue. (It's happened before)

Last edited July 10, 2013 at 5:51 PM by Cranialwizard

Cranialwizard wrote:"But COH2 did it! And Modern Combat Mod did it!"

And look at the balance of Company of Hereos 2 and the Modern Combat mod. It's an absolute mess.

You should elaborate.

QuoteIn more detail, the balance of the modern combat mod is less noticeable because the existing sniper mechanics of the game had been changed when the vCoh factions were in their right state removed.

I don't understand this part at all.

QuoteTo those whom still support the fallacy of a balanced, 2 man sniper squad that can be reinforced, and you know who you are: It will never, ever work with Company of Heroes unless a dynamic change is made to the mod.

I think you're wrong.

IMO sniper teams can work, but are fairest when they exist as an optional upgrade for a 1-man sniper unit. With this system in place, you preserve the initial sniper duel mechanic but provide a means of investing in the sniper's survivability, especially late-game.

As long as countersnipes are capable of neutralising the sniper team (removing its sniper functionality so that it can't immediately kill the countersniper) then what you have is an entirely legitimate gameplay element that isn't nearly as impossible as you're implying.

For example, in Modern Combat a successful countersnipe always kills the sniper and spares the spotter (equipped only with an assault rifle). Treating the sniper team like a support crew and killing them both when countersniped is another option, but a clumsier one I think.

Last edited July 31, 2013 at 6:47 PM by I_am_a_Spoon

In the next patch the sniper team will be working like a 2 man weapon team of things like mortars and AT guns. So when 1 dies the other does as well. As well as the health getting a nerf to 80hp. And a counter snipe will outright kill the team.

Good choice, but this thing should have been done without such number of posts

JuhwannX wrote:
In the next patch the sniper team will be working like a 2 man weapon team of things like mortars and AT guns. So when 1 dies the other does as well. As well as the health getting a nerf to 80hp. And a counter snipe will outright kill the team.

You mean; you loose 2 men squad even if the spotter dies? Well, I've already mentioned that problem but I reconsider the situation of 2 men sniper squad; if the sniper is automatically killed if the spotter dies will make 2 men squad redundant. The beauty of COH is non-mirrored units, OST sniper has longer range, SU sniper has 2 men. Pros-cons are different and that makes a fun game. Having 2 men sniper team just because of aesthetic reasons don;t serve anything to game mechanics.

If you make 2 men sniper team like a support crew then the cost, effect and purpose will be ground zero for this unit.

I think the biggest problem of sniper spam is that you have both Conscripts and Snipers at the same time. Cons are meat shield for snipers and Landsers while you are picking theirs or waiting a counter snipe. That sounds nasty and not fair in my book.

Marksmen is ike the Wehr sniper in terms of stats except that he has worse rate of fire and he got the burst fire after upgrading it. About the Soviet sniper: it was never the point of putting the 2men sniper team in for gameplay reasons. It was only for aesthetic reasons.

Are you sure it doesn't effect game play? I am just curious;

1- More men means more targets to shoot, 1 men sniper conceals himself better than 2 men.

2- What about the missing shots? You may miss 1 men but 2 men gives more chance or not?

3- Second men may be revealed more easily then one man; for example if medics are near carrying the wounded. Medic passes near the spotter not the sniper and bam! revealed.

4- More men also gives bigger chance for crash because of the space they use. Crash spotter, both dead.

5- Let's say you spam 3-4 snipers, that means 6-8 men and you strafed them. Afaik strafe gives more damage if more men inside the kill zone.

I don't know the numbers, figures and stats, just asking.

Last edited August 1, 2013 at 6:47 PM by Riggsman

I am not balance expert, but I find myself leaning towards CranialWizard's position.

As far as I understand, one of the few remaining major balance issues in vCoH faction matchups is sniper massing. Essentially, the units that were designed to counter snipers cannot do so effectively enough, which leaves snipers as actually the best counters to other snipers. This leads to ridiculous sniper massing for the purposes of counter sniping, which, in my opinion, is rather lame. Shouldn't the game's late game revolve around more than just four snipers on both sides supporting heavy vehicles, trying to pick off the enemy's snipers?

I believe the major problem with the sniper is its cloak ability that functions irrespective of whether the sniper is in cover. Since EF does not touch the regular game's balance, modifying that is out of the question. However, the team does have control over the Soviets, and so the team should make an effort to not encourage this lame, if effective, strategy.

So let's be realistic, if the sniper team is more durable than a regular sniper and retrain then that is merely accentuating the problem: nothing effectively counters snipers except snipers, and that becomes more so in the case of the Soviets.

I don't have thousands of 1v1s under my belt, I admit, but I do believe that either the sniper team should be merely aesthetic and treated like a regular sniper, turned into a regular sniper, or it can remain more durable, but remove its cloak ability that functions without cover.